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Opinions|Thoughts: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers
Posted 2004-03-25 20:04:28 by damonwhite

Non Gamer Report Damon White Reports: The latest Non-Gamer Report:

"On the whole, the gaming community is a fairly small group. But, I believe that all groups have potential for growth and development. One thing that bothers me about gamers is there is a lack of basic social etiquette. Now, you may not think etiquette is important, however, the rest of the

world does. And, no matter how exclusive you are about your personal choices for friends, there will always be instances in you daily life when you have to interact with the public-at-large. Small courtesies such as please, thank you, excuse me, and pardon me, do you mind, etc. seem to always be the exception rather than the rule with gamers. It’s the small courtesies and rules of behavior that can make a difference when you want to be acknowledged and treated with respect."

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Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers


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"Opinions|Thoughts: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers" | Login/Create an account | 88 Reader Comments
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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 08:34 PM
Some of these points may be valid but for the most part I have to say that it's a load of rubish. If you want to sight a case here or there you can but it does not nesecarily condem the whole gaming comunity.
Just like any other group there are examples of poor behavior.
As far as going into a gaming store and not being able to tell who is and who is not an employee by there attire is a bit ridicalus to me. For one I know most of their names or if that doesn't work then look for the guy behind the counter. I think a bit of common sense is in order here.
However, that's just my own 2 cents and I'm a savage barbarian gamer.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 08:44 PM
So she's at a banquet and a gamer doesn't know (because he was never told) to leave his cup down to avoid service?

In the first place, what does that have to do with being polite.

In the second, she showed herself to be the rude one in my opinion. What's so hard about tapping him on the shoulder and explaining the rules.

Sounds snobbish to me, like she enjoyed watching him look and feel foolish.

But what do I know. Im just a business executive.

And a gamer.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 08:48 PM
I wonder what this person expects.

How would another group handle a situation like this I wonder.

"Lawyers, clean up your act. You constant use of legal jargon at parties offends us non-lawyers. You really need to learn some courtesy."

When in fact this group is performing behaviour perfectly acceptable within their group and an interloper is asking for change because she feels uncomfortable.

Sorry Maddie, that isn't the way the world works. When fifteen people in a room are acting in a way their group finds acceptable, you can either join in or leave.

Saying "you fifteen people aren't making me feel comfortable" really does not fly.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 09:31 PM
Is this article for real? She doesn't think the store should allow customers to curse? Has cursing become a gaming issue now? Is cursing an issue at all? What was this soccer mom chruch lady doing in the hobby shop in the first place?

That whole article was a bit surreal. It sounded like the kind of petulant whining that I'm used to hearing from gamers when they (we) talk about "jocks."

Lady, put the kids back in the mini-van, go home and enjoy your new Brother Bear DVD.

Moron.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 10:03 PM
She's not a gamer, but hangs around enough to know the inner workings of a game shop.

Sounds like the store owner should have thrown her out for hanging around without buying, banned her from the store, then put her name on a list of banned customers.

Lol.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 10:04 PM
this is mindbogglingly out of place here.

it hurts my brain to even begin trying to think up coherent words that explain exactly how wrong this whole article is.

and your coffee example is simply the most rude thing i have ever heard. how dare you judge someone else who was not raised in your prim and proper society with your doilies and tea parties.

we're gamers, not children raised by wolves. what you may think is apropros may not be how someone else is brought up, and that goes for all people.

is your next article going to be about how people from India should respect the rest of the world and eat cows?


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 25, 2004 - 10:34 PM
So let me this straight.

She's at a banquet with a gamer who doesn't know the rule, and allows him to look stupid for the entire party because she doesn't want to "embarrass him more".

Then she posts the story to a gaming website, where, as a gamer he might *read it*.

Because she doesn't want to embarrass him more.

And we're rude?


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 03:36 AM
A lot of folks seem to be getting their feathers ruffled over this post. Aside from the dinner coffee cup thing, I think that pretty much all the points in this article are well-made and reasonable.

Ironically, several of the posts against her are exhibiting the very same rude and inconsiderate behaviors of which she is accusing gamers, and are essentially vindicating her viewpoint.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 04:58 AM
Don’t allow repeat customers who come in to "hang out" and never buy anything. Well that isn't rude at all!! You know there are many times where I'll go into a gaming store looking for new and used stuff and not find anything I'm looking for, after all I don't actually NEED these items I just want them. Other times I may spend a couple of hundred dollars on stuff at that store.


Don’t allow foul language in your store. O.k. I agree with this. However, I've never really seen this happening at any game stores that I know of.


Don’t allow improperly dressed customers in your store. Improperly dressed???? WE need more information here so that we can assimilate and join the Borg. Once again what are we talking about, no shirt, no shoes or are we talking about fashion mistakes. Come on here.


Don’t allow one customer to treat another customer disrespectfully. I have yet to see this happen.


Don’t be afraid to ban people from you store. Display a list of people who have been banned. It will show your other customers that you care about the environment of your store, and you won’t tolerate disrespectful behavior.
Yes, because nothing makes me happier than seeing a list of banned people from the store. Does this woman have a clue. Does she relize that these stores are trying to make a living also. This is not a social experiment.
I can tell to this that if a store where to ban a friend of mine for the frivolous reasons listed above then I would NEVER frequent that establishment again.



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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 05:28 AM
A list of banned people on a wall, what a really bad idea! That's just begging to get you sued. For that matter, chasing people out of your store may get the local authorities real upset as well.

I've read other posts this person has written, and they were better thought out. This one however shows that she makes some truly stupid assumptions.

Part of good manners is tolerance. Of which the author seems to be in short of. Game store owners know that much of their young clientele do not have a consistent cash flow. Chasing out someone for “hanging out” is just a sure way that you will not see them return when they do have cash.

My suggestion to the author, stick to what you know.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 05:50 AM
Amen!! I've worked in the small-market retail business, and you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with your column today.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 05:59 AM
I never have any of these problems.

My lucky d20 ensures I pass all my etiquette checks.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 07:40 AM
Well, aren't we a little on the defensive this morning.

Maddie, pearls before swine. But, thanks for trying.

To all of you busting her chops about letting that gamer continue to look foolish, it wasn't her place to tell him. She was just introduced. Someone who knew him better should have spoken up.

If the things she brought up aren't a problem for you, or your strore, then I guess it doesn't apply to you and you can go on your merry way.

We say we want to be treated better as a group. Then as a group, we need to be treating other people better.

By the way, you cite an example and initial captitalization makes reading posts much easier.

Have a nice day.



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  • Oops by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 07:42 AM
Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 2, Informative)
by M-Rex21 on Mar 26, 2004 - 08:15 AM
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Amen Maddie.

Sorry to shine the light of truth on you all, but gamers are, just about, the most socially inept, unecessarily rude, and hygenically lazy group of people I've ever run into. Don't believe me? Go to GenCon. By Sunday, the entire place smells like an armpit, and no one says, "excuse me." They tend to giggle a lot about non-sensical things. Gamers are a burden on whatever local businesses they tend to hang out in. Trust me. I've seen the looks on servers faces when a nerd herd of gamers walks through the door.

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule. I've met a few. But, in this case, Maddie is exactly right. The whole industry needs to grow up and, at least, try to be civil in public situations. Otherwise, the whole 'gamer stereotype' will continue to perpetuate itself.

M.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by Doc_Ryder on Mar 26, 2004 - 09:25 AM
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To an extent, I think she's right at least in part. However, she misses the fact that not only are gamers sadly in need of lessons in politeness, the entire society is. Americans have become a pretty rude society. I work in customer service in a phone center, and I hear it daily. The people I speak to are as often as not rude, demanding and self-absorbed. The idea of speaking to me, the lowly CSR, politley seems to be beneath a lot of people. I also see it when I go to the store or am out in public in general. And it seems worse there, but that may be related to the large numbers of people you encounter in malls and non-specialty stores.

I think that limiting this instruction to just gamers is overlooking the real problem that the past couple of generations of parents have done (and are doing) pretty sad jobs of teaching their children how to behave like polite people.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by groodude on Mar 26, 2004 - 09:51 AM
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I have to agree with a lot of people on this one Maddie; you dropped the ball a bit.
People will never change their behaviour unless they know that it is wrong. And in most cases they will never know what is wrong if no one tells them. If you had told the coffee-impared gamer about the up turned coffee rule he might have been embarassed for a few minutes, but now he will be continually embarassed since he doesn't know that his behaviour is wrong.
The swearing gamers in the store? Maybe they haven't realized that most people don't want to hear certain language in their daily dealings. You can try explaining that to them, or let the manager/owner know that you don't feel comfortable in a store that allows that type of behaviour.
Although from the sounds of it, you need to find a new gaming store. The staff a my local gaming store has changed over a few times, but I generally can't be in the store 30 seconds before being asked if I need some help. And as someone pointed out, the person behind the till works there and can point out the other employees to you.
As of the banning of people from the store, what happened to giving people a second chance? I'm sure that I've done some stupid things in stores on occasion, but people are willing to forgive and welcome me back in. Maybe if the person in question had been warned on multiple occasions and had refused to change I would support banning them, but not until they've had a chance to change.

And it's not just us gamer types that have poor social ettiquette, I've seen it in just about everyone. Please don't single us out for something that everyone is guilty of. I went through that in high school and don't feel a need to experience it again.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 11:36 AM
A few thoughts here on Politeness and Etiquette.

1) If you allow someone to make an ass of themselves - you are an ass. I learned the coffe-cup-flip-over thing from a complete stranger. Coincidentally, I met her at a banquet and she only knew my first name. I followed your examples scenario virtually to the letter, except that when I got frustrated and looked around, she told me what the problem was. Apparently, she figured that if I was getting frustrated I must not know the rule. I was actually quite grateful and instantly lost all hostility towards the wait staff. After all they had been very diligently doing their job. Further I lost all sense of embarassment (the whole "why do you keep bugging me" thing) because now I understood why I had been so "special."

2) Most people would do well to dust off their pleases and thank yous. I am not always as polite as I can be. Your point is well taken; we should all be as polite as we know how.

3) Have you ever heard of tolerance? Try a foreign country, like Canada (specifically the western half). Do you know they will overhear you wondering about directions and volunteer to help - before you ask. We consider easedropping impolite; and god help the poor sucker who easedrops and then buts in. Tolerance folks, not everyone has the same rules for politeness that you do. Judging people by your standards, before you know they share your standards leads to boatloads of misunderstanding and hostility. In Canada, we could have been lost for hours and ticked off the Canadian who offered to help. Instead we rolled with it, when in Rome, and walked away with both sides happier for the exchange. (For you attentive readers item 1 is based on my standards of politeness - which means I was not very tolerant of the rules that Maddie knows.)

4) Freedom of Speech. (Here is where I get to choke on my words again.) She has the right to voice her opinion, we have the right to respond. We, most likely, will not come to a middle ground. If you disliked her assesment, then do what you can to change that image and educate non-gamers about how wrong those stereo-types are. I am not going to pay attention to most of her suggestions because they stink (imo). But I will be making sure that I am the most polite that I can be, because everyone could handle a little more courtesy in their daily life.


My thoughts on my game store. At my store, I am a customer not the owner, I have a great sense of belonging and ownership. I feel like it is mine; if you steal from it you are stealing from me, if you abuse it you are abusing me. I know the owner personally and know all of the staff. I often come and hang out; that is what game stores are about, they are just as much social places as they are businesses, to gamers. In my store, I also often help other customers, especially when they are obviously out of place. (Like the grandmother who misread Tau as Ten and wanted Ten Hammerhead for her grandson - we got it figured out and sent her away amazed at how friendly everyone was. Gamers friendly, go figure.) I also help staff and openly tell customers that I don't work there, smiling the whole time. I honestly doubt anyone has ever believed me (not counting regulars I know). I am not the only customer who works for free, there are at least 2 others (that I know of). All in all, my store is a place anyone (gamer or non-gamer) can enter and feel comfortable; I think it is for exactly the reason that sometimes the line between customer and staff is blurred. Personally, I would not change it one bit.

I can tell you that the owner is a good friend of mine and that if he were to change industries or open a new business, I would be there to help him. But when I first met him, we did not know each other from Adam and if it had not been a game store (a place a gamer likes to hang out at) I never would have gotten to know him so well.

If you are ever in Sacramento, CA, come

Read the rest of this comment...


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Not really a relevant article(Score: 1)
by wyrdlyng on Mar 26, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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I have to agree with many of the others that have posted and say that this article was not really appropriate as it did not really discuss a topic which is expressly related only to role-players.

You could substitute "gaming community" for just about any other group and it would read the same. For example, plug in "video game community" and you'll see most of the same behavior applies.

Are gamers socially and etiquettely impaired? N more than any other group of hobbyists. If you don't believe me then go sit next to a group of sports fanatics (the kind that begin drinking the morning of the game and believe in wearing the teams colors as skin tones) at a sporting event.


On the subject of vulgarity, this is a cultural, not social issue. 25 years ago saying damn was harsh. In the 80's, ***** and bastard were spoken on primetime television and deemed "acceptable." Fast forward to today and everything short of f*ck and c*nt can be found on television. (Hell, shit was shifted into acceptability a few months back when they used it on primetime TV.)

Does this make vulgarity okay? I'm not saying that it does but don't blame role-players for causing the moral decay of our society. Most are just kids that soak it up from tv, music, and their parents. Put the blame where it belongs.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by bloodsuckingretailor on Mar 26, 2004 - 01:01 PM
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I belicve that there is a moral lapse in the world that not only in the gaming community but in all of the communities of just good old fashion concern.
Gamers have always been inept in social situations an have to have the desire to learn. At formal served parties that I have attend over the years the wait staff always removed the coffee cups after asking if you would like coffee. Really formal "stuff" I have attended coffe was served with desert.

On the use of foul language at the gameshop have you requested them not to use those words in your presence or have you used those words yourself.
When I owned a store I banned people and them and removed them for misbehavior. I demanded respect from the childrenwho came in to my store more then even thier own parents did. Over the 15 years that we were in business I watched these children grow and mature and have been thanked numerous time for allowing them back.

How this Maddie schedule a live ation game where you can teach the gamers how to act at gatherings.
We use to go to the "How to dine like a diplomate" gatherings at the local college.

About not spending money I remember this quote from one of the sharks of the industry "if I could harpoon them peel away their wallets and just throw the bloddy husk away I would"Is there a quota that you feel they must spend before they are worthy of your time? What about the guy who kid just had open heart surgery and all the money went to hotel bill and one of hisonly forms of fun is hanging out at the store. What about the kid whose mother just lost her only job and they have only enough to keep heart and hearth together. Is there a sign like the one at the amusement park except it is "You must spend this much before you can go on this ride"

Maggie hope you had fun in Vegas.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 01:07 PM
Tee-hee. This one was just to get the boards going, huh? Mission accomplished! ; )


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 26, 2004 - 06:18 PM
On posting lists of banned customers:

I would not feel any better about walking into a jewelry store, or a bookstore, or a restaurant, and seeing a list of banned customers. I'm sure these stores have such lists, passed either by word of mouth or a discrete list behind the counter. Posting it prominently would probably cause more anxiety about the remaining clientelle, rather than easing any concerns about rude behavior.

I believe I've seen a ban list at my FLGS, but I was not allowed to study it, nor is it publically available. The regulars who have run into problem customers know that someone can get banned. One-off customers don't run into the folks who have already been banned, and if someone is rude while a new customer is around, the customer won't wonder just what those other guys had to do to get banned.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by Jirel on Mar 27, 2004 - 02:29 PM
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The comment about the gamer at the dinner was inconsiderate and not well thought out. The point she was probably trying to make and did not do well was that the person was easily annoyed and didn't bother to exhibit good manners and hide his annoyance but inflicted it on everyone else there. While that was reaching, it was probably true.

A lot of this article sounds like it could have been written by someone that frequents one of the local game shops. Kids in the store are allowed to run wild, fight, cuss, steal each others cards and in general be very disruptive. If it weren't for the fact that I was already involved in gamming before I went to the store I would never have started playing cards. There are a lot of good points in this article and its a shame that it wasn't written better and done in such a way that the good points were highlighted.

I think the idea of game shop employees wearing a name tag is a good one. And no one ever said "Hi" to me when I came into a game shop until I was well known. If a card shop was run in the same manner as the local game shop, it would go out of buisness. Some of these points are valid ones.


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Everyone calm down... (was Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers)(Score: 1)
by GrayhawkFH on Mar 27, 2004 - 07:40 PM
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Everyone take a deep breath, please.

Now, on to my thoughts...

First and foremost: The "Betterment of Gamers"? Maddie, you seem to be forgetting the cardinal rule of helping others: If they don't wanna be helped, you're wasting your breath.

In my experience, most small business owners can't afford uniforms for their staff, so, while name tags may not be out of the question, I can also say I've *never* had a problem in the several dozen game stores I've visited in my life figuring out who worked there. I have always been greeted and asked if I can be helped. Heck, if I'm not, it's a pretty sure bet I won't be back...

The coffe cup incident is one with no clear-cut right and wrong party. Suffice it to say that it was perhaps a poor example and lets move on...

And I'm sorry to say this, folks, but the comments about Sunday at a large convention (and many smaller ones as well) "smelling like an armpit" aren't necessarily wrong. Though, I have to say, Origins 2003 wasn't too bad... As a *group*, gamers could stand to shower a bit more often. YES, I know that many of us do. But let's be honest, how many of us have ben stuck next to the rather...malodorous person in the dealers room on Sunday? More than want to remember it, I'm sure.

As far as the game manufacturers go, while it's a *REALLY* good idea to have your presentation and outline ready and sharp...

***IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY ***NO*** DIFFERENCE HOW THEY DRESS***

I am *so* tired of this elitist garbage. Enough. I will rant no more on it.

Banning customers? Bad idea, unless they either steal or are abusive. Word spreads quickly, and embarrasing people will only lead to trouble, possibly legal.

Language: It's not unreasonable to ask people to watch their language in a public setting. Especially when parents are bringing their children to participate in various in-store events. If parents hear something they don't like, then the kid won't come back (because the parent won't bring them), and less money is made.

"Improperly dressed" customers: Asking for trouble again. See Banning Customers, above.

Other thoughts: THis is the second/third article in a row that deals with this topic. Can we please move on? I've enjoyed the other topics before. Don't get stuck here. Those who agree or have gotten their feathers ruffled are not the ones you need to reach.

They already laughed at this and have moved on to the next article.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 0)
by An Anonymous Reader on Mar 28, 2004 - 10:37 AM
Oh, please, people. I've worked in the retail gaming industry for more than ten yeras, and with the exception of the coffee-cup story I've personally witnessed every one of these points repeated unto absurdity - I've seen foul-mouthed gamers screaming about their "motherf-ing bad rolls" in front of grandmas buying a pack of Yu-Gi-Oh, I've seen shirtless, shoeless, bathless, jobless, mannerless gamers of every stripe with a horrible lack of social skills. I've watched gamers berate each other to the point of physical violence and have had to eject several bodily from my store. I've seen an increasing number of "chemically dependant" gamers over the years, as well.

Now, none of this should indict the many, MANY good gamers out there. But guess what? In the past 15 years I've watched the gaming community become more and more ghetto-ized (if that's a word), and more and more accepting of it as a norm. Behavior (and smelliness) that would get one thrown out of a theater, a job interview or a restaurant (or a game store 10 years ago) have become acceptable to many.

Perhaps it's all a function of the "fringe" nature of gaming - an assumption that many good gamers with jobs and families know is false - that has created a sort of self-styled pariah's club of bad gamers. No matter the cause, as an industry we need to deal with this problem.

In the face of such issues, the obvious course IS to increase professionalism within the industry. Maddie is dead on.

Oh, and as an aside to the wit who declared anything involving 15 assenting people to be something either accepted or fled from, I'll be sure to invite you to our next dogs and toddlers orgy. Hint - society, not individuals, determine acceptable norms of behavior.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by Mr_Analytical on Mar 29, 2004 - 06:20 AM
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I'd like to point out that the gamer at the banquet was actually correct. You never place a cup or glass upside down to refuse service, Emily Post describes it as needlessly rude.

The correct procedure is to either refuse the service when it's your turn to be served.

So I think it's Maddie that needs to reacquaint herself with the rules... I bet she holds her knife like a pencil too.


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Re: Non-Gamer Report: The Betterment of Gamers(Score: 1)
by magstheaxe on Mar 29, 2004 - 12:18 PM
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I've been reading the comments, and I've seen a lot of comments along the lines of below:
...she misses the fact that not only are gamers sadly in need of lessons in politeness, the entire society is. Americans have become a pretty rude society.


Those people are missing the point. To pull in a positive stereotype, gamers are some of the most intelligent, brightest people that I've ever met. And therefore, they have no excuse.

Whenever I go to a con, I meet gamers who have college degrees (frequently advanced degrees), who are in Nat'l Honor Society or Mensa, who run their own successful businesses, who can do advanced math problems in their heads, who are practically experts on everything from Medieval culture to the current quantum physics theory.

So because gamers are so smart, I expect more from them. If they can figure out the best place to land the Mars rover, the best way to perfom an emergency tracheotomy using only a spork and a plastic straw, or the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow, then they can bloody well figure out how to say 'please' and 'thank you', not curse in front of children, bathe once a day, and use deoderant.

I don't expect the same from the rest of American society for one simple reason: the average American can't find his you-know-what with two hands and a flashlight. But gamers are SMART. Gamers have brains. If gamers don't know something, they're willing to find out. And therefore it should be the easiest of intellectual challenges for them to figure out how to be considerate of the people around them.

It shouldn't matter what the rest of American society is doing. Gamers as a whole have more brains than the rest of American society. So I expect them to do better than the rest of society, at least on the simple things. And etiquette--contrary to popular opinion--is mind-bogglingly simple.

But on this issue, too many of them don't seem to use those brains, and for the life of me I can't understand why.


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