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 Digg.com Facebook Google Bookmarks N4G Gamerblips del.icio.us Reddit Slashdot.org StumbleUpon cool go 360 :D, waits for the bu bu buh teh 4 disssssks Thank Jebus this story didnt break at 11am :D ! Rather have 30ps than 4 DVDs... :lol: what a HELMET, "Rather have a laggy game, than have 4 DVDs" "nerr nerrr nurrr."
One thing to say, *Big Sigh*. oh and, Even the bluray has its drawbacks, ..This proves it.
KTHANKSBAI. this aint gonna end well haha I'd rather have the smoother version and install all the 4 dvd's to hard drive :)
For 360 owners with smaller hd's, then it'll cause a few more headaches. Hold on....what's that noise?
*listens*
It's STD_Grasshopper on the defensive! Watch out, he's got a blamethrower! Has it been confirmed on four discs then? I thought it was only the two? im gonna upgrade to a 120GB hard drive soon, i got one off ebay for £49.99 brand new sold my 60gb hd too, so yea ill be installing it too
i think alot of the small hd owners have upgraded oh well i guess ill just have to deal with 100FPS on my PC, ohh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On what? Up there it says 60fps for the PC No one likes a willy waver. :lol: Don't worry my little PS3, I'm sure they'll be something worth switching you on for soon....erm...oh yeah! Uncharted 2, that's not multi-format so can't run better on my xbox 360. :wink: You people are idiots.
Pointing the finger at the BR drive just shows how little you f-ing know about consoles, and how arrogant you are as a person.
Also this article shows how lazy Carmack is in regards to programming and putting the effort in, other developers have shown that they can get a fast framerate coupled with amazing graphics/physics/AI and sound out of the console in tandem. Blaming the low fps on the PS3 itself is just ignorant, and exposes his laziness. There are workarounds and methods to fix this obstacle.
Yes, ID may rectify the fps issue by launch and here's hoping, but to openly come out with that comment on how slow it is on PS3 compared to his other format versions (of which the 360 was likely the easiest to port, as explained later on), is just stupid and fanboy baiting. If this is seen as a fanboy comment, I couldn't god-damn care less. I'm just tired of developers moaning about this-or-that on whatver console. You CHOSE to release it on that format, therefore you are OBLIGED to make do, and make the best of it you can.
The quote "only a shoddy workman blames his tools" comes to mind, though... only a tool, blames other tools.
A little more time spend on the PS3 version and they'd get it on par fps-wise with the PC. Of course the 360 version's going to run at a similar rate to that of the PC, as the 360 is essentially, a PC, in a smaller box.
Lazy developers deserve little of my time and patience.
Also, I have all consoles, and I buy the game for whatever format has the most optimised and feature-heavy version (mostly PC) but I'd personally rather have a slightly slower (albeit very playable - 30fps is fine you snobs) version than having "INSERT DISC 2", "INSERT DISC 3", "INSERT DISC 4" on every so-often. Multi-disc gaming tbh is very 1990's IW has shown them how its done, 60fps, 2 years ago. Wooo!, Glorified Playstation Fanboy right thurr. i thought sony said the cell would be more powerful than 40 atomic bombs, so why can't it handle this at 60fps? I'm sorry but did you just call John Carmack a lazy programmer? Erm...that seems a little unfair given that he is one of very few people in the world who can ask for a new Gfx card feature and nVidia and ATi will bend over backwards to incorporate it into their next iteration!
The way I interpret what he says here is that Sony made the same mistake with the PS3 that they made with the PS2. The learning curve for the PS2 was unlike any console that came before it. It might be more powerful, but what company has the time and money to spend on researching something that should be handed to you with the development kits. Now, if the PS2 learning curve was steep...I can only imagine what the PS3 must be like. And if id are having trouble then that does not bode well for ANY other company.
Of course, this is not the first report of problems developing for the PS3 - wasn't it GTAIV that was delayed due to problems getting it running smoothly?
I am not going to argue that the PS3 might be the technically superior hardware - but that doesn't count for anything if you don't make that power easily accessible to the developer. The only idiot here is you. If you bothered to read the entire article from Edge you would note that id pointed out issues developing for both the PS3 and 360. Instead, like a rabid fanboy, you jump on one particular issue and moan at the developer even though the game is nowhere near completion.
Go read the article, cause at this moment your mad ramblings are kind of embaressing. being a pc programmer doesnt automatically translate into a console developer.
if he's reporting that ps3 is only running at that speed and gets it up to par for release, hes an idiot. if he doesnt hes lazy.
the ps3 isnt on par as its being developed as a pc game - and the 360 requires hardly any changes in technique. the ps3 will need more adjustments due to it being more of a 'port'.
this game wont look better than some other games on ps3 running at 60 frames, CoD4 for one. capsule_toy,
Do you even know how to program? I'd like to see you make it 60 fps on PS3. Until then, zip it. I love this, some PS3 fanboy cretins think they know more about this subject than the man who practically invented FPS's.... :roll: its just damage control, seems to be lots of it from them on here That's nice. While we may be "idiots" you are busy being a bona fide assclown.
1) I'd be willing to bet good money Carmack leaves you eating dust in regards to knowledge and ability where it concerns game programming, so really his professional opinion means a whole lot more than your moaning.
2) Carmack didn't seem to be so much complaining as making an observation about the difference in FPS for "Rage" on the PC, Xbox 360 and the PS3.
3) 30 FPS is a decent gaming experience in terms of FPS. Beyond 60 FPS the human eye on average doesn't see much difference from what I gather.
4) Just buck up and openly display the SDF fanboy shirt you wear beneath your weak claims to the opposite. I very much doubt few of the people who have read your comment believe your claims to the contrary anyway.
:roll: Three cheers for the PC! Hurrah! Hurrah! HURRAAAAH! :lol: Blame the devs for being lazy not the system. We all know the differences are minimal not 30fps thats just down right lazy! 1st off do your job proper ID your being paid shit loads for it 2nd grow up cvg for being such fanboy baiting tossers and 3rd for the fanboys grow the **** up you nerds and go out and feel some tit. So wait, you're telling me id, a dev with a considerable understanding of making games for PC, gets better performance from a PC and a console with similar architecture than a console that doesn't?
Somebody catch me before I faint from shock.
Will these interminable fanboy-bait articles never cease? for the last time, the 360 architecture is not like a pc! more like an old mac so don't go bleating on about 'easy to port this and that'. maybe rage just isn't designed for the ps3's nuances from the ground up and that's why it's suffering.
old crazy Ken's favourite song must be "I did it MY WAAAAY". :wink:
and Sony are suffering because of it on 3rd party titles. While I agree with your sentiment, it seems only fair to point out that if we all were only ever allowed to criticize and/or state our opinion - good or bad - about something we could do just as well as those we are commenting on, then I suspect an awful lot of us would be a lot more quiet on a great many topics.... Nice one! :lol: I like that song. :) Hahahaha poor Sony zealots So what you are really saying is that you found another LAZY company that cannot properly program the PS3, right? :lol:
Carmack said: "The PS3 lags a little bit behind in terms of getting the performance out of it," ...
Don't try and fool us man. That might work for the Teenies, but not me. It's funny Carmack, how do the other REALLY, REALLY great developers do it for the PS3 and come out with TRULLY SPECTACULAR products? Or is it just that you guys want to take the easy and cheaper road...it's all about the quick and easy $$$$$. Go ahead take NO risks to make a stellar product. Pride in your work means nothing anymore. Why not try and stand out of the mediocre crowd and join the likes of ARTISTS like Gorilla, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, etc. Have you seen how excited every PS3 owner gets with anything they create. PS3 owners can't wait to spend their hard earned money on their next game, becasue we know what to expect...a great experience and NO EXCUSES. Keep your crappy game...I won't spend another dime on lazy programming. I have a collection of subpar (hurried) games for both my 360 and PS3 (mostly 360), this and future id products won't be in it. I'll be patient and select from the really GREAT games, which lately have been mostly PS3 exclusives. Imagine that, the best games around, from the developers that took the time to learn to program the PS3...and PS3 owners will be going back to THEM for years too. Unless it's completely unplayable, I'll still get it for the PS3. I don't have the 360 online so there'd be no point in getting it and I never notice the difference between 30fps and 60fps. If it moves when I want it to move and shoots at what I'm aiming at, then that's good enough for me. Carmack, lazy? Hah!!
Of the three versions, the PS3 is guaranteed to sell the least. Why on earth should they spend additional time and money on it?
Carmack isn't lazy - he's just got some common sense. Hey look, another "brand-new" user who's first post happens to be an almost-exact repost of something that "Capsule_Toy" posted in this very thread. :roll:
Game development costs money. If John Carmack is joining the rest of the developers who have been saying it's going to take them longer to get the same performance out of the PS3 than they can get from the 360 right now, then John Carmack is basically saying that the PS3 version of Rage is going to cost more to develop than the 360 version.
It doesn't make much sense to spend more on developing the product that is inevitably going to sell less units, does it?
You should take your (pleasantly playable) 30fps and be grateful. NOW THATS WHAT AM TALKIN ABOUT!!! WHY DO WE NEED A PS3 AGAIN? :D LOL....POOR,POOR SONY CAMP. FEEL FOR YOU GUYS! (NOT) How embarrassing if the Mac version runs at a higher framerate than the PS3!
Seems I agree with one Sonyfanboy... yes, I'd rather have 60 frames a second and four discs, than one disc and 30 frames. It's no more inconvenient as making a drink, visiting the toilet, grabbing a bite to eat, plugging in the controller to recharge, or turning the lights on. All of which can happen within a gaming session, but I guess the PS3 does all that for you!
I remember a couple of years back after playing Modern Warfare, then going back to Rainbow Six (which ran at 30) it was unbareable, totally unplayable. I wouldn't worry though id will get a few more frames out of that Playstation. I won't be getting this for either xbox or ps3 so I don't really care just can't stand these stupid trouble causing storys. EA manage just fine with multi platform releases so do Activision and Epic even Crapcom (yeah yeah its intentional) and Ubisoft just the old pc big boys like Valve ID and Bethesda are the ones that let people down and blame the hardware when its actually their faults should have stuck to pcs I say. I'll keep an eye out for the game that you're releasing. I imagine it must be as groundbreaking as Doom.
What's it called?
:) at least he's trying bless him.
valve actually cant get a working ps3 game up and running thats even acceptable.
they should both stick to their pc roots - the 360 only comes off better because it is a pc, made by pc company microsoft.
carmacks a pc guy through and through - now only cashing in because consoles are where the profits are at and pc gaming isnt popular anymore. the whore.
ps3 is getting better for devs all the time, naughty dog says there is now more memory as the OS has been shrunk in an update. 360 is forced to work with direct x because its a pc.
he has decades of practice on the pc and has the cheek to slate a console before hes even put a game out on one. Its interesting from a technical standpoint that they are having trouble running the PS3 version at a solid 30fps when the x360 is managing 60. Huge difference there although 30 is perfectly playable.
Another note, dont call Carmack an idiot. This guy used to sell high end PC's with his engines. They where always a big leap and other companies just looked on disbelief (or licensed whatever tech he was selling at the time)
Personally I will be playing the real version *PC cough, pc* ;) ..... well if its any good. Doom 3 sucked haha fanboys at it again! christ get a job and move out your moms basements for the love of good 8)
gettin laid might change your lives too, try it! New profile but strangely familiar :roll: PS3 fanboys need to get real.
All this crap about "Lazy" devs lazy is when you can't be bothered doing anything, or something easy.
There's nothing Lazy about not spending EXTRA time wrestling with a needlessly complex console architechture.
And so what if the 360 is a PC? It's weird to me how people seem to use that as a negative thing. I don't think anyone with a clue minds a PC in a box, at the front end it's as much of a console as the PS3 is.
About the 4 disc thing. It just proves how some PS3 fanboys are so unwilling to accept any technical shortcomings the console has. You would rather have 1 disc and 30fps? Really???? How ridiculous. How long are you going to be playing the game for? 12 hours + and you would rather have 12 hour of inferior performance for the sake of 20 seconds of disc swapping? Yeah, ok.
Carmack is probably smarter than anyone posting on here, and lets face it most of the devs that do "amazing" things with PS3 are either heavily supported/owned by Sony or are under the umbrella of massive publishers e.g. Activision who have money to waste spending more time on PS3. Board games anyone?, I have Monopoly somewhere...... Ever play GT5:P?
That runs at a solid 60FPS.
Ever play CoD4?
That runs a solid 60FPS
Like the PS2 all the best quality games will be near the end of the consoles life span.
Just i'ts annoying to see all these developer bitching about everything these days.
I'm not only talking about PS3 Devs but 360 Devs, the could squeeze so much more out of the PS3 and this will show once one actual Devoted Developer takes the right amount of time into their product, Honestly they should do their homework and study PS3 architecture before they start on the PS3 and then make slanders. i dunno. Naughty Dog, Polyphony Digital and Guerilla have all shown what the PS3 is capable of (graphically at least). until i see a developer make a non-PC game that looks and runs better than either of the aforementioned three developer's games (those being Uncharted 2, KZ2 and GT5 Prologue), i'll continue with the inclination that it's more the developer and less the hardware in the case of Rage.
i'm sure Carmack is a wizard with the PC and the 360, but he has admitted plenty in the past that he prefers those systems. that pretty much throws objectivity (and any hardened intent on his part to maximize the PS3 to its fullest potential) clean out the window. That's exactly what i mean, They don't give the effort to actually invest more in PS3 development.
Too lazy to learn. there so used to the PC and 360 they don't want to learn about the PS3 and would rather moan about it. This does make me laugh,why would a games publisher say that a multi format potential blockbuster game runs quicker on one system than the other?
The reason....is because the publishing company has hyped the game and suddenly realised the xbox version will be finished before the playstation,as the two systems have different coding and writing systems. It is common knowledge that the playstation is more complex and indepth to program,realising this at the last minute the games publisher has come up with the lame excuse that it may run slower on the playstation........but the truth is they need your hard earned wonga sooner rather than later as thet are too lazy to finish both formats at the same time.....GREEEED! yep, thats with vsynch on,vsynch off = most likely 100+FPS average.
lol,its a bit epenis alright, but just thought id mention it lol, besides most PC versions of console games that are decent enough conversions/ports run like crazy and with higher gfx settings, my 2 year old PC ran DMC4 at 85FPS average, 130FPS in a lot of places on ultra settings.
haha, make it 4 Hurrahhhhh Is this the same direct x, that has taken gaming to a new level, over the past 10 years, the same direct x that has introduced a standard for developers, one where 3 of the biggest companies in the world, amdati, intel and nvidia do everything to make sure hardware can support it.
the ps3 no doubt has power, its just been bottlenecked and apart from taking the top of the bottle off with a sharp knife, it's gonna be bottle necked for it's lifespan.
If the world's best programmer says it's slow and behind the rest and says the gpu is slower and the cpu's are the same but you have to come up with special code to get round the ps3 system, then, who are we to judge, we aren't programmers.
He is, he made wolfenstien 3d, doom 1, 2 and 3, quake 1,2,3, he indirectly made through his engines half-life, duex ex, duex ex 2, thief, system shock 2 and countless others his engines have powered, all because the guy knows how to get the best out of any hardware.
you must be the sort of person who decides to get to the top of the 120 storey building, by building the staircase and then walking up it. he's the sort of guy, who will walk round the corner and take the lift. That is the difference with PS3 and PC, 360, sure you can get an end result with both, one just requires super human levels to achive. Its time for PS3 owners (who dont have both consoles) to accept. You purchased the wrong console. Fine, if you are happy with it, but all this comparison to 360 is getting more boring every day. You are constantly having to defend the thing against wave after wave of articles that clearly show it isnt the super duper messiah that you think it is!
But hey, I heard a rumor that there is a game called Agent coming out???? I could be wrong but i am sure I heard someone in here mentioning it?? No, Rage runs the game code at 60hz and will most likely lock the frame rate to 60 also. It's actually completely pointless to render any more frames since it will just be the same information drawn more than once. You get 60 "snapshots" of the world, drawing more than 60 frames will just be a copy of one of those 60 "snapshots". 60Hz is the vertical refresh rate, there is only 1 other game that does something like what you mention, Battlefield 2 wont render any more frames than 100FPS, any framerate above that is just showing duplicates. I highly doubt that Rage is gonna do the same and with an even lower framerate before duplication, no other id game has ever done this and there is no reason to implement it other than for online play to cut down on network activity, i.e. 100FPS for BF2 requires a ping of 10ms to see visually what the server is seeing to determine hits etc.
Ive very few games that dont play at 80FPS+ and i dont see this being any different With lower game sales expectations and greater difficulty in making a title on par with the 360, it makes me wonder why more developers just don't stop wasting their time with the ps3 and make it for the pc and 360. Valve did well doing this with Left 4 Dead, ID should do the same. »
The 60Hz I mentioned is the number of updates the game engine do per second. They are doing this for Rage and they did this with Doom 3. Many games separate the game engine from the renderer, so the renderer can do lots of FPS, that's of course not the same as the game itself updates the game code that many times, but just that they are separated. But id has both the game engine and the renderer locked together. »»
Com_Fixedtic -1 unlocks the FPS limit in Doom 3 How many more times does it need saying? The GPU (the bit that draws the pixels) is considerably better on the 360. It's an unavoidable fact.
The GPU (the bit that handles the polygons, and vertex shading) is considerably faster on the 360. It's an unavoidable fact.
Any game that is running at 60 on the PS3, could comfortably be matched on the 360 with rendering performance to spare, so with better AA, or a higher resolution (ergo, using more pixels).
To match the vertex rate of the 360, you have to "waste" CELL performance, processing all your geometry so the GPU only gets the minimum possible amount of data to handle. This means you're effectively making lots of the GPU silicon redundant. (Sony should really have made a custom GPU (like the GS on on the PS2) which does NO back face culling / occlusion etc, and added more pixel pipelines or on-board RAM to get it's pixel performance up instead.
If Sony had stuck to their plans and used 2 CELLs, they would undoubtedly have produced the monster they hyped the machine up to be. It would have cost a fortune and would probably still be nearer £500, but it would have blown the 360 away.
Dropping to 1 CELL and an off-the-shelf GPU in order to be affordable, has resulted in a machine that has to effectively waste the CELL it's got making up for GPU shortcomings compared to the Xenos. In a word, it's gimped. Except that it doesn't work in the latest patch, but
any frames over 60FPS will typically be duplicates and hence there is no real performance benefit.
John Carmack of id software: "The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is." I own both consoles, so I am not a fanboy. You guys have not done thorough research. Carmack does in fact make this statement, however that is not the full story. In the August issue of game informer he states they took longer to learn the ps3 hardware, but now that they have the logistics under control, the PS3 gives the developer more head room in terms of graphical quality. So he said that being early in development the xbox runs the game smoother, but he expects the end result of the ps3 game to perform slightly better, and only on one blu-ray instead of 2 ultra compressed dvds. I like all the 4 paragraph comments about how "lazy" developers are and how they won't take the time to do it right on the PS3. Time is money dumbasses so take you 30FPSs and deal with it. Sony shouldn't have expected developers to re-invent the ****ing wheel just to program for a console nobody wanted in the firsy place. Please drop the price of the PS3 so I can see how much Sony loses next year. Arrogant lying aholes are getting theirs this gen AND I LIKE IT! oh bugger, did i miss the sony fanboy rage (not the game, in general) train? oh, i was looking forward to what petty excuses they have this time.
I like both my 360 and PS3, and my gaming PC (the wii can bite it, overpriced toy), but sony fanboys are the scum of the earth, they just won't see reason. Unfortuntely some people have such blind brand loyalty to Sony they will deny anything thats anti-PS3.
When Carmacks labelled as lazy, or not talented enough, you just have to give up.
The 360 was designed by a company in too much of a rush to get it out (I'm on my second in a year).
The PS3 was designed by an arrogant company who made some bad design choices, and extraordinary PR gaffes.
Thank god for PC. Before somebody comes in and tries to declare that your whole statement must be wrong because a supporting tiny detail near the end of your post is slightly incorrect, I am going to politely point out that the Deus Ex games ran on versions of Epic's Unreal Engine, and Thief and System Shock 2 both ran on Looking Glass' Dark engine.
But apart form that, yes. Carmack's probably _the_ technical genius when it comes to 3D game engines. If he says something on the subject, then get out the chisel and the stone tablets - it's canon. dude, CVG is a 360 fanboy cesspool. you will get a more logical reponse to your statement if you would've just spoken it to your computer screen. it doesnt matter if this game turns out to be shit. Well fair enough ill accept that( i never had a gfx card capable of maxing Doom 3 on release so i was never in a position to investigate beyond that at the time ), however in the context of this article and the usual $hit that goes on here between the console heads, even if its duplicate frames that are rendered, theyre still being rendered and a decent enough PC is just capable of rendering way beyond what the 360 is capable of, besides not many of us have 120Hz LCD's to take advantage of it, its just that fact that its capable of it :) That's bad news for the PS3 version. But... is this game going to be any good? Any point prematurely defending a piece of technology when the game hasn't been released yet? ID's last set of games (Doom3, Quake4, Quake wars, etc) have been average to say the least. Yawn fests with non-inspiring level design... oh but the lighting was fab ooo and it shifted zillions of polys. Release a triple AAA game and back up your statement is all I'm asking. Together with the fact that 'locking' a framerate at 60fps for example doesn't actually lock it....it's simply a maximum so that any additional processing power that is available from the CPU or GPU can be pushed into the areas that need the extra power.
What no-one has mentioned is that with a 60fps maximum, it also means that with a lot happening on the screen there is nothing to say that the minimum framerate won't be halved when everything gets busy on screen.....and here we have the problem with the PS3.
When/If it gets really bad and the framerate takes a dip due to what is happening on the screen, the PS3 could easily drop to 15fps momentarily and that will be stutter-central....the 360 on the other hand could drop to a minimum of 30fps and would go un-noticed.
Either way, I couldn't care less...like lmmmiffnnn I'll be playing it at well over 100fps at resolutions way above true HD. hahaha... I love these personal attacks just because someone has a different console. It's not difficult to see how people of different colour, country, religion, etc end up killing each other! I don't even care for this game, and I'm pretty sure forum debates centred around it will prove to be more entertaining!
atrimus, if you believe CVG is a 360 fanboy cesspool.. er.. bye then!
Velocitar... hahaha. There's always one cocky sod who knows more than the previous forum poster! Poor little TheHun1 was probably feeling really proud of his list 'til you highlighted all his errors.
eltonbird... Beneath all your superior knowledge and technical understanding about the PS3, your final thought was the funniest thing I've read on the 'PS3 is sh*te' debate. So to recap your own simple but effective phrase... it's gimped! i wonder which camp? :lol: im sorry mate....but BANG ON!
+1 QFT
Read it people Such a nice cesspool it is too. Too bad the radioactive, single-minded, nonsensical SDF fanboys float around in it like wet turds. I thinks it's interesting how the Sony Fan boys rush to claim that Jon Carmack is a lazy developer. Jon Carmack, the father of First Person shooters, the man who managed to get Wolfenstein 3-D to run smoothly on a 20 mhz 386, the man who stunned the world with Doom then turned around to stun the world with Quake, Jon Carmack the man who is widely considered to be the best video game programmer in the world is being called lazy. Then you guys have the audacity to say the Id isn't willing to put the time into the Rage engine. Well guess what, Rage has been in development for years, but unlike your precious Killzone 2 it's being developed for multiple platforms. Obviously making a multi platform game is more difficult than targeting a single platform, but it's really Sony's fault that they came up with the arcane architecture that they did. Quit tearing down some the best developers that have ever existed and ask Sony why even Jon Carmack seems to struggle with the PS3. While it may be true that 360's GPU is more powerful, the CELL is supposed to compliment the RSX. I hope things get better with the PS3 version, but it appears that Id isn't doing it right on the PS3. If the CELL doesn't have enough resources to help out then it may be viewed as a big win for the 360 guys. If you're able to play even 10 hours on one disk, then it isn't really a big deal I think. That said, this "news" just says that the PS3 version is behind. If both were done, then some could scoff at the 20-30 FPS. That isn't the case. If the 360 version isn't close to being done, and the PS3 is even further from being done, then they can optimize further. If it ends up being at about 40 FPS(consistent), it is quite nice. Maybe it will even get to 60, as with the other versions, come release version ;)
LONG STORY SHORT - PS3 VERSION ISN'T AS COMPLETE GUYS! ^_^ I completely agree, it really is beyond ridiculous. Carmack has been called "The Human Decoder" by some. He has proven time and time again how brilliant he is. Hell, he makes rockets for attempted space travel in his spare time. It's laughable that there is not just one but an entire group of ignorant people who are shouting about how "lazy" or "incompetent" the man is when they clearly know nothing about him. No it doesn't...
On most tracks, maybe all, going around corners with a few cars in front of you, will see the framerate slow down quite a bit, with added screen tearing.
Unless they overhauled the game engine considerably since I last played it, I can't see it being any different now.
Balls, I forgot to bring my marshmallows... Anyone blaming Carmack for being a lazy programmer (the "bad workman blames his tools" quote, for example)needs to get a little context on the guy. There aren't many developers in the world where if they say things like this they're probably worth listening to.
He's by far the most candid studio head when it comes to technical details on development of game engines (just had a look at his iPhone dev diaries) and he's not a one trick pony who's out of their comfort zone when not using the DirectX API (infact I believe even iD's most recent PC games still support OpenGL). If he says the rasteriser is inefficient, it probably is.
Anyway- note he didn't say they couldn't optimise the threading/job handling, he just said they hadn't figured it out yet. PS3 owners can probably trust the man who pretty much pioneered true 3D engines. Yea people who are saying that Carmack is lazy are idiots. He IS a PC programmer all his life after all and RAGE was developed as a PC game first and foremost and X360 being basically a PC it's no wonder he's having trouble with the PS3 version.
But I think he'll work it out somehow in the end. This is John Carmack we are talking about here... Carmack has pretty much defined standards that the likes of naughty dog, guerilla and other ps3 devs follow so i dont know how anyone can knock him. i bet if you asked those devs what they think about carmack they would call him a legend and look up to him. it would also be interesting to know what the ps3 devs really think of the ps3 architecture without the pressure of not having to bow to sony's will.
all carmack said was the gpu in the ps3 is a little worse than the 360 but this fact has been known since launch, kz2 uses the cell to share rendering with the gpu because of this. the trouble with rage is it comes from a pc/360 background so its tough to retrofit it to the ps3. wasnt there an article saying a lot of devs lead on the ps3 now because of this fact a while ago? the likes of id and valve are unlikely to lead on the ps3 because of their roots in the PC industry and nowhere does it say rage will be compromised on the ps3. I can understand they PS3 fan boys are miffed as the machine costs an arm and a leg and they are getting 2nd rate products.
Don't blame developers, blame sony in their arrogance.
The talk about Carmack being lazy is ridiculous. He voiced his concerns about the PS3 way before it came out, he is a legend.
Even mass market products from EA have suffered on the PS3 compared to the 360. Yeah?
Well the Mac version runs at 120fps
.........
no, honestly... woah. I go home and spend a night gaming and come back in the morning to this. Impressive i must say.
Starting to think theres some kind of age difference between the PS£ fanboys and the rest of us. Unless you were about 12 you'd know who John Carmack is and not be so bloody retarded as to call him lazy.
Now go away and learn some gaming history and come back. There wouldn't be your precious COD if it wasn't for this guy. In the sense that the guy was involved with pretty much every early fps made and the innovations to the genre brought with them.
But he also was part of the team that wrote the engine it runs on. And the Rage engine is the next iteration of said gaming engine. just for those who dont know, games dont tend to get optimised at this stage of dev, so wait untill release and see what the Framerates are like on 360 and ps3 make up your ****ing mind ID.
a few months ago they said the ps3 version would be better now its the PC and 360 one which one is it?
there just saying this shit for PR stunts.
and for the record being a PC programmer is allot like being a game developer.
thats how Ed Boon got into the industry thats how allot of people got into making games, thats what im doing now. They showed a video of demo on Xbox 360 and PS3 months ago and both looked perfectly identical.
Sounds fishy to me - CVG stirs shit up again? If they aren't getting the framerate out of the PS3 because they're trying to run at the same res, with the same AA as the 360, and are drawing a lot of pixels, the only way they'll boost that is to drop the Res / AA on the PS3. Like many, many games do.
The engine's been in development across multiple formats for ages now, so to claim it's just unoptimised is going to be wide of the mark. the fact is, again the ps3 version is a port.
if he developed the versions seperate like criteron done with burnout, or IW done with CoD4, then it would be faring a lot better at this stage.
the port will need optimisation. the 360 version will be very close to the pc as it progesses.
he should shut his mouth unless 20-30fps is all he is going to be able to get out the ps3 in its final form. in which case i question his talent when 60fps on a ps3 shooter, with amazing graphics has already been proven. "Sounds fishy to me - CVG stirs shit up again?"
Or maybe the 360 version is simply better? Spot on MONKEY.
And hell, sounds like I missed a hell of an evening, still I'd rather spend time actually gaming or with my girlfriend when I'm not stuck at the office. I do wonder about the people who frequent games forums through the night... Shouldn't they be a) gaming or b) pursuing other interests in order to demonstrate they have lives?
Back to the topic - it's all very good being the "future of gaming" and all that ********, but when one of the greatest programmers in the world needs the bloody enigma decoder to actually get half-decent performance out of the machine then its a sad state of affairs.
Amazing how EVERY developer is apparently lazy unless they are 1st party or working on a Sony exclusive release.
No third party game devs can apparently make sense of it unless they exclusively focus on the PS3 to the exclusion of PC and 360 versions. PC + 360 owners combined is a ridiculously larger demographic than PS3 owners and, particularly in the west, you are BOUND to get lazy ports or a lack of interest. some of u guys must be really thick headed. Is rage going to be such an awesomely magnificent game that the many examples of multiplatform games being identical on both platforms should be ignored? Look at red faction, fight night 4, call of duty, fallout 3 etc etc. Why the massive performance difference between the ps3 and 360 version of THIS game?
Instead of thinking, you just resign yourself to considering carmack a god of 3D gaming. He has no limitations and years of working at the same thing has not burned him into a pc game designer.
I bet no-one bother to read this guys post
Well w/e. we will see when the game comes out what the truth is. Edge isnt to be trusted... PC version for me! 60fps and no disk swapping after install! 8) I'm assuming 360 one will be installable... last time i checked there have been versions of every single ID game on practically every gaming device ever released.
Saying ID and Carmack only do PC games (although admittedly thats where there games work best) is utter crap.
They should be apllauded for being able to get thier engines, which are 99% of the time far in advance of what the competition are working on working on consoles in the first place.
Which lets face it have always been technically less proficiant than a good gaming PC, but less hasstle. thus the trade off.
I was personally amazed witht the job they did on Doom 3 on the Xbox. They managed to wring graphics comparable with early 360 games out of it and still played perfectly well.
Also if you guys had read what carmack said he said that they haven't got the PS3 version up to speed yet. Meaning they are working on it.
I do fins it hilarious how on one thread the Sony guys you Rage as some kind of weapon in thier insane crusade against the 360 and now they are calling its chief programmer lazy. can you say hypocrite i knew you could. The story as it appears on Edge.
(quote)
As part of our look at id’s new multiformat shooter-cum-driver Rage featured in the new issue of Edge, out in UK shops on Monday, we saw that the frame rate of the PS3 version currently lags some way behind the 360’s.
The 360 version matches the PC’s 60 FPS while the PS3’s frame rate runs at just 20-30 FPS. “The PS3 does lag a little bit behind in terms of getting the performance out of it,” Carmack acknowledges.
“The rasteriser is just a little bit slower – no two ways about that. The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. Processing wise, the main CPU is about the same, but the 360 makes it easier to split things off, and that’s where a lot of the work has been, splitting it all into jobs on the PS3.”
He is, however, confident that the PS3 version will match that of all other supported platforms: “Everything is designed as a 60 hertz game. We expect this to be 60 hertz on every supported platform.”
“The work remaining is getting it locked so there’s never a dropped frame or a tear, but we’re confident that we’re going to get that.” basically you are right, fps doesnt impact in visual quality above a certain level. the ps3 version could actually have higher quality graphics which could be why the fps is lower. at the end of the day does it make a big difference if the quality is the same and both run smoothly? as long as the frame rate doesnt stutter i bet there will be no tangible difference.
everyone can calm down now as the article actually says he expect all verisons to run at the same speed, they just need to optimise on the ps3. its a shame this came out really as during dev of any game there will be times were performance isnt up to scratch but then the games arent in a release state. 4 DVDs? About 20gb to install.....Poor 20gb owners. Is this what that journalism degree got you? This? Three years studying the great reporters, and you end up writing this? That you are so ashamed, that there isn't even a proper byline.
You flame up, out of context, a single quote, purely to drive up traffic and one off ad dollar hits. When people point out how out of context and incorrect the story is, you update it, claiming to have received "new" information from Edge.
Everyone knows that Future Publishing own both Edge and CVG. There's either a complete lack of competence and due diligance at the organisation, that the writer didn't even check it out with a sister publication.
But more likely, is that accuracy doesn't matter, and as long as you can whore out those hits Daily Mail like in their inaccuracy, you'll get a nice bonus.
If I were Carmack, I would be even more incensed. Why would anyone speak to your blasted organisation, when all they end up doing is *******ising your own words to shill to Digg. who really cares bout any of this s--t only ever good thing bout the xbox or 360 was shenmue 2 its the only game a real gamer cares about, »
They can opt not to install, or they can upgrade! 20GB is fine to get a foothold with the 360, but despite the 120GB HDD being horribly overpriced, it's still cheaper than buying a new GFX card or upgrading your motherboard/processor to run the thing!
Don't get me wrong, I'd still be playing FPS on the PC if my 360 and laptop didn't do pretty much everything my rig used to do... :P UPDATED
http://www.edge-online.com/news/carmack-ps3-performance-lags-behind-360
I'm sure he mentioned that months ago. Dunno why CVG brought the shit up again. Slow day again? Hang on, doesn't this just mean that the PS3 version is behind the PC and 360 ones in development?
Didn't JM state that they had spent time working out how to get the best from the PS3, rather than do a crocked port from the 360?
Where does it say that the PS3 version won't be 60fps when it is released?
Anyone?
Did anybody actually read the full story?
Hello???
:lol:
You guys crack me up. This game will be out in 2011. Yes, year two thousand eleven Mr Mark. All versions are still in development. So 'real gamers' only ever play Shenmue 2 and don't care about ID games?
Right, OK.
:roll: »UPDATED
http://www.edge-online.com/news/carmack-ps3-performance-lags-behind-360
You do have a point you know. Could it be that trolls like STD_Grasshopper are knowing undercover pawns for Future Publishing's mighty Bathian empire and their crusade against Sony? Sitting in his pants in the bedsit above his parents council house, making money for his 50" tellys by fuelling the flames on Future's forums to generate ad revenue? »»UPDATED
http://www.edge-online.com/news/carmack-ps3-performance-lags-behind-360
LMFAO :twisted: :D Let me just check here...
D..
Do I....
Ah, here it is. "Do I care in the slightest?"
Says here "no". »»»UPDATED
http://www.edge-online.com/news/carmack-ps3-performance-lags-behind-360
Well, I'm sure in reality he's a hugely well paid publishing executive who only appears to be a lobotomised retard because he's typing from an expensive (hire purchased) iPhone... :P Amen. this game is by no means finished so they prob will address the issue.
i dont care personally, im getting this on PC. In my defence I picked myself up off the couch late last night after a relaxing evening with freshly made sushi...only to take that classic "one last look online before going to bed" and before you know it an hour has passed. :wink: ya poor us. now i feel lieft out of the crowd :(
doesnt work like tht man. on PC there is no limit to the performance you can get, it scales according to your hardware and settings and the game i guess. usually anything above 120fps is said to be super overkill and prob doesnt render but for 95% of people its 60.
tbh 30 frames isnt that bad at all and is totally ok. most games you play on the consoles are running at 30fps and as long as people dont know this it appears that the game runs silky smooth for them.
btw guys dont 4get they said they had to tone down the gfx fidelity on the 360 version. at least they said tht before. Updated: Will run at 60fps.
PS3 fanbois:
Just imagine how fast it could run if Carmak wasn't such a lazy programmer! »»UPDATED
http://www.edge-online.com/news/carmack-ps3-performance-lags-behind-360
I don't know about you but I don't receive any pop-up ads when I visit this website - not from work nor at homne and I sure as hell don't click on any of the advertisement banners. :lol: huh
nice 1 ID :roll: **** it, this is fun.
While the frame rate is shit and Carmack is talking about technical problems with the PS3, all the 360 owners can quite freely crow at them. IF the PS3 version ends up pissing all over the 360 version, then Sony fans can start taking the piss out of xbots.
Only people who have a right to laugh all along are the PC owners... Provided this doesn't require a "ground up" rebuild of their PCs by relase! It took people quite a while to actualy go and read the article, though that in itself doesn't.
So its a kind of non news item........
Breaking news...... a games that isn't finished yet, isn't running as good as it could!
Wow stop the press.
Why all the hate?
Its only games, isn't this meant to be fun? I'm still trying to find out where the 4 DVD story comes from; last I heard, it was 2 DVDs for the 360. Wow my typing skills are sadly lacking today.
Should have read 'that doesn't suprise'
Must have been the sugar rush from lunch, as I'm struggling to even type this. Three solutions:
1: Don't buy Future Publishing mags. They're thin, over-priced, they treat their staff like crap, and anything that appears in one of their mags that's actually related to gaming is normally just a mere accidental side-effect of them trying to make as much money from advertisers as possible.
2: Use Firefox with Ad-block Plus to browse the site. That way, not only do you save on your bandwidth and not only do Future not profit from putting flame-bate like this up every day to drive traffic, but most importantly, you'll actually be able to see the damn site without all of those crap pop-ups.
3: Don't get your news from CVG. They mostly copy/paste it from a few other websites anyway, and anything of worth that actually hits here first will be found somewhere else within minutes, and normally in a more accurate and better sourced form.
The only good that this site serves is to come and wind up the unfailingly insecure fanboys who, by a glance at their behaviour, could easily be mistaken for having accidentally stapled their own scrotum to one of the sides in Console War VII.
Oh, and PC users aren't in anyway feeling smug about Rage, because Carmack's already gone on record as saying it's a "console game that's been designed from the ground up for console controllers", and all as PC owners know all too well, "Console Game" is usually an industry euphemism for "Dumbed Down Piece of Crap". (See Deus Ex 2, Civ Rev, etc. x100 for examples.) Why do you think I love my gaming PC (amongst other reasons)? :wink: This is hilarious.
Firstly, Carmack is a frickin' GOD in gaming terms, so all you prepubescent PS3 stroking fanboys, either give a valid reason why he is 'an idiot' (sigh...) or STFU.
If you don't know that the PS3 is a pig to program for, then do a little research into the black box sitting under your table before slating one of the genuine pioneers of this industry. Cretins. Everyone (bar you, apparently) knows PS3's architecture is such that it makes it an absolute ball ache to get the most out of. That's nothing to do with the power it has.
Carmack never said he couldn't get 60fps out of it, just that it was a challenge compared to 360, a fact that is validated by pretty much any developer who has developed multi-platform.
Seriously, do any of you PS3 fanboys actually READ? And before you go all Human Torch and 'flame on', I have both machines, I'm not biased towards any platform. Actually I have all 3, but the Wii doesn't count, especially in this argument. CVG did NOT include the whole quote. " Carmack told Edge "The 360 version matches the PC's 60 fps,But the textures on many surfaces currently flick visibly between resolutions as you move toward and away from them"
The article is another article just to make people not to buy the ps3 version.
These sites should have emphasised this a little more, rather than misleading people.
But i guess that what website like your site do, you mislead people on purpose just to make hits on you stupid site, "Anti PS3 and pro 360" by bashing the PS3 and not showing the cons on the 360 "the Texture problems" i hope both problems on ps3 and 360 get fixed. fanboy sites like Your site and Gameradar and TVG should get banned from the gaming industry. 'ELLO, 'ELLO, 'ELLO...
WHO DARES WAKE ME FROM MY SLUMBER?
LIES LIES MORE LIES AND DECEIT! I'M NOT HAVING IT.
"Could" is so much the key word. It depends very much on the game, design and who is responsible for writing it. I could cite you a number of games where the PS3 runs at an equivalent / superior resolution + frame rate. Off the top of my head, Virtua Fighter 5 is one such example where the PS3 has a superior resolution (the X360 version was later than the PS3 as well). Namco's Ridge Racer 6 on X360 Vs Ridge Racer 7 on PS3 is another comparison where again the PS3 is better. Just to show I am not biased, everyone knows Ghostbusters on PS3 has textures at 1/4 res compared with the X360 version.
So then... Could? Yes, could, but not necessarily DOES or WILL.
The X360 can get AA at much less cost / expense in many cases thanks to the fact it has 2xAA and 4xAA built into the H/W. The X360 also has a horz + vert upscaler, while the PS3 only introduced horz upscaling in firmware v1.8 (n.b. It has no vert upscaler). Some programmers might like to implement 2xMSAA themselves, others will make use of the hardware QC routines on the PS3 and others won't bother implementing any AA whatsoever.
I would not use the term "waste" as you have. The CELL has multiple SPU's - attributed especially to different tasks. Making use of SPU's that are dedicated to specific tasks is "useful" - not wasteful. Barring his own knowledge, expertise, intelligence and willingness to adapt, there is NOTHING stopping a programmer from maximising the RSX's capabilities whilst also making good use of the CELL's SPU's.
Yes, a programmer could use a SPU to manage backface culling, but lets not forget that the X360 still has to manage backface culling - even if it's an internal process. Developing for the X360 may be easier and I don't think anyone has ever contested that fact, but saying that the RSX is redundant silicon is barbaric nonsense.
Gimped compared to what? Consider PC hardware and ANY console you choose to compare it to. All consoles are "gimped". You're paying less money for less capable hardware. If you want cutting or bleeding edge hardware, buy a PC. Anyone arguing their console is THE BEST and any other is "gimped" deserves a dominatrix bitch slap!
Unfortunately some people CHOOSE TO BE anti-PS3. What is it exactly *you* hope to gain? Perhaps you are also anti-PS2, anti-dreamcast, anti-PSP, anti-DS, anti-iPhone... They're all "gimped" by todays PC hardware standards, but that doesn't mean they don't have useful or entertaining applications. People still buy them!
QFT
What makes anyone here think that i.d. have the logistics of the PS3 "under control", or that i.d. know exactly how to best make use of the PS3 hardware? Consider that other games already do and upcoming releases such as Uncharted 2 & God of War 3 may look better and run better than Rage.
Those of you who are crazy enough to blow Carmack's trumpet about :-
(a) How clever he is...
or
(b) How lazy he is...
... have clearly been fooled into thinking John Carmack is responsible for programming the X360, PC and PS3 versions of Rage. Carmack was jointly responsible for coding the original i.d. tech 5 (mega-texture) PC BASED routines that have already been used in Quake Wars. Rage isn't being coded exclusively by Carmack for PC or X360, let alone PS3. Carmack is actually applying himself in more of a technical consultant role these days - sometimes hands on. What makes anyone here think that i.d. programmers - even Carmack - knows how to best make use of the PS3? Even if Carmack does know how best to make use of the PS3, what makes anyone here think that i.d. tech 5 is compatible?
How you code for a console / PC is based on several aspects...
1. The API's (and libraries) available at the time you commenced development.
2. The API's available at the time you're already well into development (too late to change).
3. The technical ideas & routines you have developed already - or have in mind to attempt.
4. Your interpretation of the hardware design, how it works, how to get the best out of it.
None of the points above are to do with being "lazy". Game development is run to a budget + timescale, just like any other project. Different people have different ideas and can identify better or different ways to exploit hardware. The fact the PS3 is very different to a PC hasn't done i.d. any favours. Asking Sony & Naughty Dog for help is nothing to be ashamed of - but you should ask whether some programmers just prefer to do things their own way.
Stop bitching about it.
»
I contest that with evidence...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQGlbGaQd5g Again this is another example that certain elements within the gaming media are either biased or just plain corrupt.
Mention the problems with the PS3 version yet fail to mention that the developer is confident it will be rectified. At the same time neglect to mention the 360 version is also having issues.
The only question left to me is wether this is a case of fanboyism in the media or a sinister negative media campaign payed for by a certain competitor.
With the amount of these articles/reports I have seen while having 1st hand experience with MS regarding my job, the latter is looking increasingly more likely. Jesus, SunScramble, calnm down. If I want to play Civ, the Sims, Point and Clicks and most strategy/rpg games I'll use my PC. If I want to play pretty much any FPS/driver/3PS these days I'll use the 360. Except Crysis. Obviously. Too expensive to keep upgrading every 6 months when they make perfectly servicable versions for a static platform. I dont really care what this guy says, he has not made a good game in a very long time.
Also what kind of idiot comes out and says "Hey guess what, Im making a PS3 game but to be honest I cant work the damn thing out!"
You want people to buy your game you clown! Lots of dev's have already shown just how much they can push out of the PS3 and if you cant match that then thats your problem.
What is also now your problem, is that your have just turned 22 million people away from buying your game!
Im sorry if your programming knowledge only goes as far as windows based machines, but that just shows people that perhaps your not as good as you make yourself out to be John. Behold his glorious return. welcome back your Lordship. 6 months of slumber must have gave you some terrible bedsores. :wink: @LordVon
Er, I think you've attributed someone else's words to me there.. I didn't say that.
The point I was making, is that if you're using the Cell to do jobs that would normally be done by any capable GPU, and you are duplicating functions of the GPU but doing them faster, that shows poor, unbalanced hardware design.
The fact that you have to use the cell this way to have any chance of equalling the visible polygon rate of the Xenos, it is a waste. It's not what the Cell was designed to do. Bedsores aren't the only thing I picked up... I have acquired a XBox 360 (the Jasper sort).
... Which leads me to a tangent point. Anyone complaining about the "weighty feel" of KillZone 2 should try lifting the comparatively heavier lead-lined American fridge-freezer that is Gears 2. Roadie run is an excuse to blur the graphics and hide the problems. Gears 2 is flipping slow - and don't anyone give me any spin about it being "tactical".
All you X-Bot Live muppets banging on about how great cross game voice chat is forget to mention that the 8Khz sampling makes peoples voices sound like they're coming through a clock-radio on Long Wave next to a microwave oven. At least the PS3's voice chat with the official headset is far clearer by comparison.
The PS3 is quality compared to the X360. The X360 has grainy graphics & blatantly compressed audio compared with the PS3. NXE / dashboard alerts and achievement awards are all low resolution guff on a proper 1080p (1920x1080) display compared with the equivalent on PS3.
Frame rate is not everything. Of course, the X360 does have some advantages as well... Carmack is only being honest when he says getting stuff running as fast on the PS3 CPU wise is a challenge, and takes time. No one can argue that point.
He also is quite specifically stating that the limiting factor on the PS3 version is pixel throughput. That's one thing that cannot be improved by clever use of the cell.
Of course the Rage team can get both versions to 60fps. But that will almost certainly be a lower screen resolution on the PS3. Just like the PC will be able to run at higher resolutions than the 360.
And will people just STOP saying "because game X runs at 1080p at 60, that game Y should be able to!" It's rubbish! Different genres and engines have different requirements and if Game X is running at a better res, it's always because other areas are doing much less. Well, when it comes to Playstaion consoles, they "developed" only Final Doom for Playstation and then Wolfenstein 3D for PS3 with Rage and Doom 4 being in development at this moment. Not much experience with Sony platforms from what I see.
And Carmack is and always was a PC programmer first and foremost. Good lord, they name 360s after me now? Does that mean they break down only half as often if a tomato is waved their way? Then the relevant commenter should feel obliged to feel remorse and not you.
I like that - particularly as I have the same problem with it.
"Any capable GPU... Poor, unbalanced hardware design..."
Compared to what? The iPhone? PSP? Nintendo Wii? DS? PS2? Dreamcast? XBox 1? Gamecube? Any other console besides the X360 that you choose to parade as superior? I don't think so.
Perhaps you consider the X360's GPU superior to the variety available for the PC? I should hope not.
X360 & PS3 games are often comparable, sometimes not. In some cases the X360 provides a better experience & in other cases - the PS3. Audio quality for example - is consistently better on the PS3. Frame rate is often comparable - sometimes better on X360, sometimes even a bit worse! The same can be said of texture quality - depending on the game and whether it pushes the system. I can't say that for every case one will be better than the other and neither should you. People should take each game on a case by case basis and if you own multiple consoles and a PC - as I do, purchase the best version - or whichever takes your fancy when you're a fan boy.
The only fact is - you can use the CELL however you like to obtain the results you're looking to achieve. It is up to you as a programmer to get there - do the best you can - or not. As for what the CELL was designed to do... Lets be clear, the star of the show on the PS3 is the CELL and has ALWAYS been advertised as such since the dawn of the chip. All of IBM and Sony's technical examples showing 100's of objects flying around, etc, were all done to show off the power of the CELL...
Proves that i.d. + the power of Carmack were unable to make the X360 version of Rage the definitive version.
Problems, problems...
People will argue the difference between frame rates, native resolutions and texture resolutions between X360 & PS3 for a long time to come. The fact is, in some cases the X360 version is better and in some cases the PS3 version is better. People can't just say the PS3 is "gimped" when it is doing some games better than the X360 can manage. It isn't clear cut.
If Rage matters to you that much, buy it on the PC. If a game is exclusive to the console you have (or don't) then you really shouldn't complain. There's nowhere else you're going to get to play it! So if we'd had the full quote in the first place we wouldn't have had quite the PS3/360 fanboy whine/gloat-fest we've just suffered through?
Actually, never mind we still would have, the mind of a fanboy can never be deterred from a good argument. OMG! Someone says ID's latest games are average and people jump on them! To all the Carmack defenders out there. Doom 1,2, Quake 1&2 are sublime. Best of the day. Why? Very little competition. Hell I even bought my first PC for them. But come on are you truthfully honestly saying Id's (here I say Id and not Carmack's) latest games are worth playing? Until Rage is backed up by a decent game who cares. And as for all the booha about 360 games being technically superior. You kidding? That argument was so 2007! Even the average score of same games in metacritic put the PS3 slightly ahead of the 360. Shame on your lies! God i love this forum. Dead head gamers all of us! Come on upgrade to PS3! And stop being a 360 caveman/woman/jippo! thanks for the tip, i see now i did make the mistake, my bad lol,this thread has gone into overdrive since i last read it :shock: I am pretty sure I have read every post in this topic and I don't recall any one really bringing up the quality of ID games in term of how fun they are to play or anything of that sort. There may be a very few who have brought that up but not many. The majority of people defending Carmack are defending his ability as a programmer which is being questioned by those who know nothing of him and more than likely nothing of programming. And all because he was misquoted, making it appear that he was lashing out at their precious console when in reality he stated they had some problems with both versions and that the PS3 version is only behind and takes some extra work to get it where it needs to be due to its architecture.
This game has not really interested me before and it still doesn't really. I haven't really been following it closely though, I may give it a rent when it comes out. I agree that Id games aren't the most entertaining out there. But Carmack is a brilliant programmer, and to label him as untalented or lazy comes off as being ignorant and petty. »
Sounds reasonable to me, except why on earth would you want to put yourself through the torture that is gamepad controls for frenetic FPS games when the PC's K&M setup beckons (presuming the FPS game was released on the PC as well)? Point-in-case: MW2. Short of a good chunk of change I wouldn't go anywhere near the Xbox 360 version of MW2 when I can play it on my PC. You actually speak for 22 million other individuals? That would be impressive if it were true. That's right folks! UPGRADE! Buy a PC! :lol:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59793
CVG should be ashamed of themselves for purposely stoking the stupid console fanboy flames by extracting a single, irrelevant line from a much larger interview, pretending that this "information" was representative of the final state of the game.
I've been a long time reader, but after stooping to this ridiculous level of tabloid blog fodder, I certainly won't be a regular reader anymore. Save this shit for Joystiq or Kotaku, thanks. @LordVon
"
Compared to what? The iPhone? PSP? Nintendo Wii? DS? PS2? Dreamcast? XBox 1? Gamecube? Any other console besides the X360 that you choose to parade as superior? I don't think so.
Perhaps you consider the X360's GPU superior to the variety available for the PC? I should hope not.
"
Not at all. There are many systems that have been well balanced, and the overall performance level is not the issue.
There is no point being able to calculate 7 million triangles if you can only rasterize 1 million. There is no point being able to vertex shade 7 million vertices if you don't have the memory bandwidth to stream 7 million vertices through the GPU. There's no point having the VRAM for a 3840x2160 framebuffer and only having the pixel throughput to do 640x480.
The PS3 is a CPU heavy machine. The Cell has ridiculous stats and figures which make it out be a monster, but where's the evidence of this monster CPU in the real world?
The CPU is busy bailing out a GPU which is under powered.
If the PS3 had fewer SPUs and a better GPU, it would be more balanced. It would still be harder to write for in that separating out code to the SPUs would still require more work than traditional CPUs, but if developers could have the SPU time they spend processing geometry back for gameplay, they would take it.
The problem with all this is perception. People genuinely expect that in 2 years time, programming "tricks" and knowing how to program the cell better will magically increase the PS3s actual capability and put more visible details and better graphics on screen. I just don't see it.
Sony's problem, is that to push the strengths of the PS3, we should be writing games that do more animation, more physics, more procedural effects. And less actual graphics.
But that would give the the other guys the "screen shot advantage", pushing more detail and more pixels, and those are the things that the punters actually see. yeah, im currently rendering games at 5040x1024, but ive only 2 screens so i can only see 2960x1024 but should be picking up a 3rd soon. Still HAWX & GRID run @ ~80FPS completely maxed but no AA, HD WTF!!! lol »
'ELLO, 'ELLO, 'ELLO...
WHO DARES WAKE ME FROM MY SLUMBER?
LIES LIES MORE LIES AND DECEIT! I'M NOT HAVING IT.
whats that all about? maybe you havent woken up properly.
I Suggest you go back to sleep "'ELLO, 'ELLO, 'ELLO...
WHO DARES WAKE ME FROM MY SLUMBER?
LIES LIES MORE LIES AND DECEIT! I'M NOT HAVING IT."
Oh oh. He's baaaaaaaaaack :shock: !
Should be good to have you back Lordy, the so called PS3 Fanboys around here have lost it of late, perhaps you can lead them back to salvation :wink: ? Love these guys Lord and Eltonbird geezers! They're like Mensa Fanboys on speed playing a game of Tech-head chess jousting! love it! Why is there this constant and unending baiting of svd_grasshoper on every PS3 article?
For some reason I read through all the pages of that Sony posts losses thread and it was basically that svd Versus about 15 other posters
It was a disgrace and a new low. I know the man brings it on himself in some ways but the barrage of hate filled posts calling him c*nt, w*nker, tw*t, cretin, chav, loner, PS3 owner, insulting his mum, and posting his profile from another website to laugh at was too much.
I think this cyber-bullying should not be encouraged by the CVG website. Although I'm loathe to see a form of forum dictatorship, I think the mods are best not joining in with the campaign of terror and instead try and exert some bloody decorum around here.
I wouldn't be suprised if some of you found his address and pushed steaming dog-shit through his door or left a severed pigs head on his car bonet with the eyes gauged out and replaced with digestive biscuits
* puts out hand of saviour and offers to lead a crying, emotional wreck of an svd_ to the promised land *
"Come with me - I will take you to Gametrailers and N4G, there, you will be accepted amongst the massed ranks of Sony zealots.
The rest of you should take a look at yourself in the mirror. Come along now svd. Don't look at them." I really enjoy all the rubbish fanboyism here lol, great fun to read, ive a PS3, but who gives a shit my PC destroys it in gfx,processing power,capabilities,audio but i still game on it, why? cos i bloody like games.
Just because some idiot buys A instead of B doesnt mean its any better or worse, ive been gaming for too long to give a crap about the hardware, wheres the N64 now? or the PS2? Super Nintendo? PS1? Megadrive? noone gives a crap now but back in the day the same stupid fanboy rants existed, so basically that was all a waste of time as this is but wont be realised by the fanboys until the next generation of consoles come out and they can argue thick and thin about those. Thanks! (I think?) I do try and bring some actual facts to the debate. I've been making console games for a living since 1997 and have worked on, or with people who are working on, every single console since the Saturn.
I have and hear a lot of first hand accounts of where the problems with various consoles lie, and some gamers expectations are just not based in the real world.
I particularly react to the opinion that it's just a matter of time before the PS3 "destroys" the 360. It is so clearly not the case. Both consoles have things in their favour, but I've yet to see an example where the PS3 architecture is clearly superior when it comes to mainstream videogames and that is, after all, it's primary function.
The Sony fans that have wet their pants over the sheer power of the Cell really need to come back down to earth. People believe what they want to believe, often in spite of the facts. Programmers can only take what's given to them. They don't have a choice. It is up to the programmer to make the best of it - or not.
I don't remember anyone being quoted as saying the most important criteria for a games console is that it should be balanced. The C64 could hardly be classed as "well balanced"... It was great at sprites and scrolling, but crap at 3d and had an awful colour pallette. The SNES could hardly be classed as "well balanced"... Mode 7 graphics, but only a 1.79Mhz CPU. ELITE on the ZX Spectrum used the Fibonacci sequence to determine the names & market statistics for each planetary system. The point wasn't ever that the ZX Spectrum only had 48k total memory or a Z80 CPU. It just had inflexible system limitations that programmers made the best of - and that's all.
People moaning that systems should be balanced should go away and think about whether their lives are balanced. Programmers can always have the challenge of getting the best out of whatever hardware is available, if they're willing to take that challenge - it's there. That's what being a programmer really should be all about and where a true sense of satisfaction and pride in one's work can be attained. Maybe you have forgotten.
Actually, there was no point writing everything you did. Consider this...
* PC's have 4GB+ of main system RAM.
* PC's have 1000's of GB per HDD.
* PC graphics cards have 256MB+ of VRAM.
* PC CPU's are more capable than the GPU's on graphics cards.
Each of those points are completely flexible and can be as balanced or unbalanced as the owner chooses. Now what are you going to do?
Horses for courses. Some great games are flashy looking but don't really do much under the hood. Some great games look pretty average but offer an involved, complex but compelling experience. The idea that all games should be balanced or that consoles should be balanced is just your imagination trying to impose some sort of technical or logical consistency / order to what actually amounts to what is always a financial decision.
No-one would bother playing Tetris if what you wrote really carried any weight. Thank Alexey Pajitnov that it doesn't.
What exactly is it that you are asking for here? Real world uses for the CELL (and PS3) have been well documented.
Interestingly put. The X360's GPU is insufficiently powered to handle everything the X360's CPU might throw at it too. Various PC features and capabilities are also limited, but may be offset by other hardware & software routines / workarounds. I'm sure there are instances where X360 programmers make use of the X360's CPU to "bail out" the Xenos. You certainly can't say that all X360 games run at a solid 60fps either.
It's game play that counts. Most of the people commenting in this thread that i.d. haven't released a decent game in ages make a valid point. You should focus on those sorts of points rather than trying to claim that the PS3 is "gimped". Come on now... Be fair.
I think the problem also is *your* perception, or do the ramblings of 12 year old's carry sufficient weight that you feel obliged to make equally disproportionate, biased anti-PS3 claims?
Where's the balance? I'd like to see you make some anti-X360 statements. Can you manage that, or is it all just too much?
You might also want to consider that the "PS3's actual capability" has not yet been fully tapped. Games like Uncharted 2 & God of War 3 show significant graphics & environment improvements on games that have come before. There's nothing "magic" about it. The PS3 still has life left in it and you are not qualified to say PS3 games will no longer exhibit any growth.
There will always be other techniques to explore that others didn't think to try and there'll be other games that focus on specific hardware 'benefits'. Ask the Russians who are still pissing about with the ZX Spectrum.
I don't see the X360's actual capability - whether CPU or GPU - magically - or realistically increasing much. Likewise, EA Sports wouldn't be selling many games if consumers insisted their games grew in leaps and bounds year after year. Maybe it doesn't matter then...
Why is that a problem for Sony? Who are these "other guys" you speak of? In my opinion, Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 looks better and more realistic than Forza 3 on the X360. I bet I'm not the only one. Hmm.
I suggest that as you promote one of i.d.'s shoddier experiences, you take your own advice. Ignoring all the waffle.
I used the term gimped, as in it's gimped in comparison to the the PS3 Sony initially wanted to make and started their hype machine on the back of.
There is really no use in going back over old ground and talking about old systems. The world has moved on. We are now in the position of *knowing* what is needed to make great video games, with believable environments, characters and such like. Console manufacturers should now be reacting to what the programmers and designers in this industry want and need. Not vice-versa.
Your point about PCs is a good one actually. You don't buy the latest CPU and then stick a 3 year old GFX card in do you. That will do sod all for your gaming experience if the GPU isn't up to snuff.
Why don't PC programmers use the same ideas you have to use on PS3? Use that monster CPU to do all forms of HSR right down to basic BFC and give the GPU as little to do as you possibly can, then maybe, a 3 year old GFX card might just suffice? Simple really. You don't have to. Because PC gamers upgrade, don't expect to be able to get away with an out of date 3D card and any halfway decent GPU will do all that stuff for practically free these days.
Allowing games programmers to make games, not spend months worrying about scheduling tasks and managing 6 SPU threads, is surely what most games programmers would prefer to be doing? Here's another take on this article...
http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/games/r/rage/carmack-rage-faster-on-xbox-360-and-pc-$1315438.htm
It would appear that despite my lengthy absence, CVG remains just as shoddy & biased a publication as it always was. CVG, your articles really are pathetic. Grow some balls & show some integrity! There's no waffle there. You should read it.
More like you proudly imposed the term "gimped" as if to make it seem as though the PS3 has a major failing which aggressively impairs it from functioning as a system.
The inclusion of the RSX is not a design flaw from which the PS3 cannot possibly recover. The CELL is used to assist with graphics - so fair enough... It's logically not that different to using a look up table instead of doing some real-time maths. They're viable techniques and there's nothing "wrong" with that, certainly not enough to start throwing the word "gimped" around.
Besides, the PS3 is what it is. The GPU & CPU haven't changed since the first SKU went on the market. It's unfair to compare design specs against what was actually released.
Which clearly does not explain why gamers still talk about the good old days and the great games that existed as opposed to the sh*t that programmers & developers shuffle out the door and pass off as "great games" these days. Even Carmack + i.d.'s sh*t... Why do so many people want HD versions of old games? Most of the new games coming out are sh*t.
Believable environments, characters and such - my arse.
You can talk, but money screams louder.
I don't know anyone who invests in the latest CPU, or the latest GPU, so no, no and your comment is therefore null and void.
Games are (even more so) seen as "products" these days. It used to be that a decent game would be born from a decent routine - or bit of ingenuity.
Nowadays, a decent game is what your Chief Financial Officer tells you it is... Quake Live. Tiger Woods online. Hand held versions of popular 'old' games. HD versions of popular 'old' games like Bionic Commando Rearmed and Super Streetfighter HD Turbo Remix... I could go on, but my (valid) point should be apparent by now. CPU + GPU just isn't as important as game play and graphics really don't seem to be all that important as they're "good enough". Tiger Woods '10 for example shows bugger all graphical improvement over '09... Oh no, my mistake - there are more people "in the crowds". Surely that's not a GPU issue!
I believe I said before that game play is what really counts and you dismissed it as waffle.
... or managing locking issues in multi-threaded code across multiple X360 CPU cores. I would tend to agree.
However, it isn't as though games programmers go that extra mile themselves to make life easier. For example a X360 developer could use XNA if his game doesn't need the performance and capabilities that are available on tap. Why not make life easier in those circumstances then? Double standards... I agree that the baiting it way OTT regarding svd, but he has pretty much covered all the offensive bases many times over. Going on about his real name was pretty lame - Alan. So what? I know someone called Alan. Actually I know a few. My name's Tim.
There also seems to have been a lot of 360 fanboys appearing over the last month or so. We all have it within us, and my 360's great and to be honest I'm glad to see Sony knocked down a peg or two after some of their comments regarding the PS3 and Sony's vision for it has been confusing at the best of times. But if the 360 and PS3 were evenly priced, I can't say what I would chose now. I've seen people comment on here that the attitudes of PS3 owners put them off buying the console, and I kind of know where they were coming from, but what the 360 fanboys lack in sheer arrogance they make up for in numbers
There are some great games on the PS3 and if anyone goes into the PS3 threads on the actual forum, you'll see the mental ravings on the article comments aren't the norm there.
I'm pretty pissed and starting again at noon. Wish me luck. | 
