Nuclear Weapons Expert Looks at U.S.-Russian Negotiations
Aired May 21, 2002 - 09:10 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to turn our attention back to Kelly Wallace now who joins us from the White House again. She's back with some new information about a story that's getting a lot of attention about exactly what the attorney general knew about the Phoenix memo warning of terrorist activities before 9/11.
OK, there's a front page story in "The New York Times" saying that both he and the FBI director had a copy of this memo two days or several days after 9/11. And actually senior Bush administration folks on the record essentially said that was never handed over to the president. What have you found out?
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, I have talked to a Justice Department official who said the attorney general was never briefed on the contents or the specificity of that memo until about a month ago. This official couldn't necessarily say if the Justice Department was told by the FBI that this memo existed days after the September 11th attacks. The official saying it was just about a month ago when the attorney general really learned what was in that memo.
But what you're having is Justice Department officials saying, look, right after the September 11th attacks, the administration moving very, very quickly to investigate flight schools. That it was aware that there was a problem here. That people were flying these planes. So there was a lot of attention immediately on flight schools in the United States, on students, that that become an immediate focus.
Now as for when or how this White House ever notified about this, officials here saying they just learned about this memo just a few weeks ago. So a lot of attention is certainly being made or focused on exactly kind of how that memo got to the FBI or notified to the Justice Department why it wasn't brought to the attention officials earlier. But what you are getting a sense of is U.S. officials trying to play down the significance here saying that immediately after September 11th flight schools in the U.S. were being thoroughly investigated -- Paula.
ZAHN: It's also interesting to note in this front-page that it says essentially that these same government officials actually grasped the importance of what the signal that was being sent in the July memo. So I guess how much follow-up are we going to see on this? WALLACE: Well many, many questions are being raised exactly about that July memo. What happened to it, why it was never brought to the attention of senior officials apparently at the FBI, at the CIA, here at the White House? So that is really being looked at by congressional investigators, even officials here, Paula, looking again to see exactly when the White House become aware of this memo.
But as for the reporting that this memo came out just -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) notified the FBI and the Justice Department days after September 11th, officials are trying to say that right away after the 11th they were investigating flight schools. A lot of attention, though, being focused on in the months before the 11th what more potentially could have been done if that memo was brought to senior officials in the government's eyes to act quickly -- Paula.
ZAHN: On to your road trip now. You're going to be traveling with the president to Moscow, as he will eventually catch up with the Russian president, Putin. What are the expectations for this trip at least as far as the administration is concerned?
WALLACE: Well, Paula, you know this is one of those trips where the news was sort of made last week. And that's when the president came out and said that he and his Russian colleague, Russian President Putin, have agreed on what many are calling a very historic treaty. Both countries agreeing to reduce their nuclear arsenals by about two- thirds over ten years. And so they have this agreement, so when the two leaders get together in Moscow they will have a signing ceremony. Officials here saying this is really a way to put the Cold War once and for all behind the two countries and to move on with a new period of cooperation between the U.S. and Russia.
So a lot of the news made already. But you'll have the signing ceremony and the two leaders pledging now to work together in terms of the war on terror, economic security, and also Russia working with NATO. You'll have a very historic meeting. NATO members meeting with Russia in Italy the first time, really. They're working together side by side -- Paula.
ZAHN: All right. Kelly Wallace, thanks so much. Have a good trip. We'll look forward to hearing your reports that you file along the way.
And as the U.S. and Russia take steps toward securing their nuclear material, there are some new warnings of inadequate safeguards at hundreds of nuclear research sites all over the world. A security meltdown that could make it easier for terrorists to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction.
Joining us now from Boston is a nuclear weapons expert, Matthew Bunn of Harvard -- good to see you, sir. Welcome.
MATTHEW BUNN, NUCLEAR WEAPONS EXPERT: Pleasure to be here.
ZAHN: I know you have just finished up a report that you obviously want government officials to take seriously. How real is the threat of terrorists getting their hands on what you would describe as unsecured nuclear materials?
BUNN: Well we believe the threat is serious enough to justify urgent actions to address it. The terrorists are racing to get weapons of mass destruction. And we need to be racing to stop them. And our report offers a set of specific cost-effective steps that can put us in a position to win the race.
ZAHN: I want to come back to the steps. But if you could, set up for us this morning which terrorist organizations you think already have gotten their hands on some of these materials.
BUNN: Well fortunately we have no evidence that al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization has already gotten the essential ingredients of a nuclear bomb or a nuclear bomb itself. What we do have is evidence that they're interested that they are trying to get hold of that material. Osama bin Laden has personally said that he sees getting weapons of mass destruction as a religious duty. There's court testimony of al Qaeda operatives about their efforts to buy highly-enriched uranium for a nuclear bomb.
There are reported communications intercepts of al Qaeda operatives talking about inflicting a quote, "Hiroshima," unquote, on the United States. And in al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan there were at least crude nuclear weapons drawings designs found there. So it's clear they're attempting to get this material.
We're now talking about all of these warnings that happened before September 11th. And people are saying, well they weren't specific enough to let us know what we should do. In this area, the warnings are specific enough. We know what we need to do is secure and account for all the nuclear weapons and all the nuclear material that could be used to make a nuclear bomb anywhere in the world.
ZAHN: Based on any contact you've had with the administration or any folks close to the administration, do you think the administration is looking at this threat seriously
BUNN: I think so. I think this is why they activated the shadow government, because they were very concerned about the possibility of nuclear terrorism. Unfortunately, the level of high-level concern is not yet matched by the effectiveness of the high-level response to the threat. There are specific actions that we can take to deal with this threat that we're not taking yet. Actions to secure nuclear material.
The good news on nuclear weapons terrorism is that terrorist can't make a nuclear bomb if they can't get hold of the material. If we can secure and account for all the nuclear weapons and all the material around the world, which is doable job -- a big job, but a doable one -- we can prevent nuclear weapons terrorism from ever occurring.
ZAHN: Is it true that here's actually proof that the only thing that separated a terrorist from getting his hands on some of these materials was a rake leaning up against a fence?
BUNN: Well, that's a little strong. What happened in one case in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia, when the civil war there had broken out, there was a research reactor with highly-enriched uranium there. There were no guards at all, and the scientists working at the reactor become very concerned and they literally took turns protecting the reactor with sticks and garden rakes, which were the only weapons they had available.
Now that facility is actually a poster child for the kind of action that we are recommending in this report. And that subsequent to that event, what happened was through cooperation between the Georgian government, the U.S. government and the British Government, that material was all removed to safe keeping in Britain. And there are dozens of facilities like it around the world where the same thing needs to be done.
The material needs to be simply removed. The surest way to prevent material from stolen from a particular place is to just get it out of there completely. There are only a few places left that still need this kind of material in the civilian sector. And there we can do rapid security upgrades. Clean it out from everywhere else.
ZAHN: Final question for you. Do you have any confidence that this Bush-Putin trip will endorse any of these recommendations that you're making in your report that would make it much tougher for terrorists to get their hands on the materials, in particular uranium?
BUNN: Well I'm hopeful. They have a historic, opportunity, I think, as the two countries with the world's largest stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, to launch a global coalition to secure weapons of mass destruction around the world. I think they really have an opportunity that should not be missed. Unfortunately, the treaty they will be signing already represents, in part, a missed opportunity.
It's an important step forward for international security, but it doesn't secure or require the dismantlement of any of the nuclear weapons to be reduced. They'll simply be taken off of missiles and put into storage. We need a follow-on agreement that will secure those weapons, that will get them dismantled and get the nuclear material on a path to destruction.
ZAHN: Well we would like to stay in touch with you, Matthew Bunn. Thank you very much for sharing some of the results of the report that I know you worked very hard on to come up with.
BUNN: Thank you very much -- take care.
ZAHN: Appreciate your time this morning.
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