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Thursday, February 07, 2008
Is sharia law in Britain "unavoidable"? Posted at: 16:02
The adoption of some aspects of Islamic sharia law in Britain "seems unavoidable", the Archbishop of Canterbury has claimed in an interview with the BBC. | |  | | Has Dr Rowan Williams got it wrong? |
Dr Rowan Williams, symbolic head of the world's 70 million Anglicans, argued that other religions enjoyed tolerance of their own laws and called for "constructive accommodation" with Islamic practice in areas such as marital disputes. He stressed that such practice should not take precedence over an individual’s rights as a citizen. Asked if the adoption of sharia law was necessary for community cohesion, Dr Williams told the BBC: "It seems unavoidable and, as a matter of fact, certain conditions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law, so it is not as if we are bringing in an alien and rival system." Do you agree with Dr Williams that Britain will inevitably adopt certain aspects of sharia law? Should every religion have the right to establish certain legal frameworks providing they do not contradict British law? Are Dr William’s views compatible with his role as the head of the Church of England? Do you agree with our blogger, Damian Thompson, that he should be removed from the post?
Comments (727)
The archibishop is totally out of his depth. The introduction of sharia, even in muslim countries, has been controversial, as evidenced in South East Asia. When sharia and civil law clash in cases where respondents within a family may be of different religions, decisions by sharia have led to heartbreak, with no recourse by the non muslim in the civil courts. The archibishop is unfortunately totally unaware that in countries where islamic law prevails, non muslims in such communities are at a legal disadvantage. Indeed, many liberal muslims are not in favour of sharia. One is at a loss to understand, how an anglican clergyman can even consider a dual legal system in a mutli-religious society.
Posted by H.M.McMichael on February 10, 2008 3:34 PM
Report this comment I, as a citizen of the US, have little to say in the affairs of the UK or any other country; for THAT is the way it should be!
If a country has spent millions of gallons of blood, over hundreds of years to develop a way of live for its citizens, then that country deserves its sovereignty.
I totally agree with Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor, that the Government's promotion of multiculturalism has destroyed the unity that used to hold your society together. Immigrants must "obey the laws of this country".
'THAT' is something that we, as United States citizens must also realize!
Posted by Ron Ray on February 10, 2008 3:33 PM
Report this comment I would just like to say this about the debate on Sharia'a laws.These laws are divine laws and have to be implemented by the Muslim rulers under strict guidance of Qura'an any dilution or distortion of these by anyone will be subjected to a painful end on the Day of Judgement by Allaah Subhaanau Ta'ala.Since Islam is the final message to all mankind from God, then it supercedes all previous messages as they have been tempered with by the people.Before Dr. Carey or Cardinal Cormac give their twisted view of Islam and Sharia laws they need to make a deep study of the Qura'an and Islamic Jurisprudence. As they are people attached to a religious body, they must decide if God's divine laws are more just or their man made laws? And God does say in the Qura'an that on the day of Judgement, nothing will be accepted other than Islam, and those who ascribe partners with Him,(like Jews and Christian and all those who worship anything other than Allaah SWT alone)their final destination will be Hell fire, and that will be their permanent abode!
I think Dr. Williams has perhaps seen the light that can only come from God the Most Merciful. I think he should study Islam deeply and embrace Islam asap.
Posted by I.A.S. on February 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Report this comment Under no circumstances should we comply with the Archbishop's ridiculous proposals.What Muslim country, e.g Iran would allow any form of Christian law in their country? We are far too liberal already and we must not consider this nonsense in any way whatever.
Posted by P. Lucas on February 10, 2008 3:32 PM
Report this comment As a proud Canadian who actually lives in a so called Multicultural country where religon has no place in a secular society, I cannot believe the Archbishop would actually advocate introducing some medival religous laws within the secular laws of the UK.
I lived in England for 4 years as a kid in the late 70's and I'm married to a very proud English woman. The England I lived in and loved is based upon a proud history and culture where one goes to the high street every saturday to shop, head to the pub for a few, and show loyalty to the crown.
All I see now is an England which is trying to emulate the United States with big box stores, malls, and ethnic ghettos, all the while embracing outdated Canadian Liberal (in Canada we say LIEberal)70's era multicultural, PC crap concepts. This, especially within a country who has a rich long history of over a 1,000 years. Just remember, it's easier to work tempered multicultural idea's within an immigrant based country such as in Canada, as compared to a country, like the UK, which is based upon a well founded ethnically based society. This goes for the European countries as well.
I thank god here in Canada the pendulum has slighly swung back to common sense and the fact we have a Tory government in power which does not coddle the ethnic vote just to stay in power. Unlike the bicycle riding, cappocino sucking, tree hugging, PC lying socialist Lieberal fairies. Oh did I say that out loud!? lol!
Chin up England and stay true.
cheers,
Posted by T Last on February 10, 2008 3:22 PM
Report this comment I do not agree with the Archbishop but he has opened the door to discuss what this cowardly Government will not. It's time for the SILENT MAJORITY, yes, MAJORITY to speak up, and stand up for OUR Christian country. We have been too passive and accepting for too long. If we don't, who will? Our church IS alive and well, but the Government has bound and gagged us against speaking out and the AoC's comments have not helped. We must risk speaking out. Doesn't anyone realise that immigrants come here because of what Britain has and stands for? You have been accepted into Britain to become British i.e. a country of Christian based ethos and laws and which has been peaceful for over 50 years and up to now has welcomed people from all over the world to come and live as we do.
Posted by Pat on February 10, 2008 3:19 PM
Report this comment British law is secular whereas Muslim law is inextricably entwined with Islamic religious dogma. British people are democratically empowered to change/amend laws if they are not too apathetic to. Muslim law cannot be democratically changed/amended - women do not have the vote. The Archbishop of Canterbury should be shouting from his pulpit to uphold British laws and culture, not cowtowing to a particularly vociferous section of our multi-cultural society. British values and standards can be great again but only if we British stand up for them.
Posted by Sue Cowley on February 10, 2008 3:07 PM
Report this comment ''Will no one rid us of this turbulent priest?''
Posted by Keith Hedges on February 10, 2008 2:17 PM
Report this comment I do not believe that there should be sharia law in our country.
If British people visit other countries, we are supposed to abide by their laws, not create our own, and the same should apply for anyone of any religion, who comes to live in the UK.
It is about time that British people stood up for their heritage that has been passed down,and fought for in two world wars.
Apathy is not an option any more!!!!!!
Posted by Gill Thomas on February 10, 2008 2:13 PM
Report this comment Is sharia law in
Britain "unavoidable"?
This is a christian country, how on earth can we oblige with sharia law. Other christian countries around the world would never accept such a thing and this just shows that the UK is too liberal on historic and religious traditions and values.
An Islamic country with a high proportion of christians would never consider having christian law in their country, so why us.
The Archbishop of Canterbury who is suppose to be the Leader of the Church of England should be last person to come up with such nonsense and I with fellow Anglicans are calling for him to resign.
Posted by John on February 10, 2008 2:10 PM
Report this comment I definately do NOT agree with the Archbishop, Dr Williamms. This is Great Britain and anyone who comes here should always abide by our rules. If I go to a Muslim country I have to abide by their rules, in fact British Christians who go and work in a Muslim country, if they wish to continue to fellowship with other Christians in that country and have to meet illegally, as Muslim countries do not even allow people of the Christian faith to worship God in their country. Here in Gt Britain we allow Muslims to have their own mosques in order to continue to worship their God. I feel that multi-cultralism has gone too far and Gt Britain is in danger of losing who we are. I do not feel that there is any way in which Britain can even consider adopting any part of sharia law here.
Posted by Dorothy Ottewell on February 10, 2008 2:05 PM
Report this comment The same is going on in Holland, where similar public figueres als try to promote this kind of appeasement. Most annoying is that many of these promoters are liberal men and woman who once went to the streets for more social justice. How can they align themselves with such an injust way of life proscribed by a religion that is firmly rooted in the dark ages. Sharia law is utterly degrading to women. Where are the feminists, who once went to the streets to demand equality? Europe in a whole should make a firm stand and promote its own way of life including common law.
Posted by Nicolaas Brandts on February 10, 2008 1:44 PM
Report this comment Not being British, and living in a remote area of the Languedoc I tend to run behind time with British news somewhat. So cna it be true what I have just learned? Has Rowan Atkinson just become Arch-Ayatollah of Canterbury?
Posted by David Monks on February 10, 2008 1:42 PM
Report this comment The AoC claims he has been misunderstood. For a man whose job it is to be understood this is a disastrous claim. What an idiot. I can say that in Britain where Sharia does not prevail but if I said that in Sharia country about the top man-in-a-frock I would have my head chopped off at least.
This man has a seat in one of our houses of parliamant! Time to go.
Posted by Delewar on February 10, 2008 1:37 PM
Report this comment One thing to come out of this matter is that many more people will now realise that some of the oft predicted (and potentially disastrous) consequences that our "open-door" immigration policy could eventually bring to this Country, are slowly coming true.
Don't say you weren't warned.
It's not too late for the Government to do something about it. Or is it??
Unwittingly, the Archbishop has highlighted the real problem, and now he should exit stage Left.
Posted by Melanie Duxbury on February 10, 2008 1:24 PM
Report this comment As the head of the Anglican Church it would be better for the archbishop to focus his attention on faith in Christ. As St Paul said " If I were still trying to please men I would not be a servant of Christ". I hope he reconsiders his position.
Posted by J Sterry on February 10, 2008 1:24 PM
Report this comment Why don't you brits hand over your country to the Muslims now to get it over with?
John Galt
PS. We will provide preserve Dr. Who and Monty Python in our museums, Pavilion prehistoric cultures and civilizations.
Posted by John Galt on February 10, 2008 1:17 PM
Report this comment Many years ago I attended Swansea Grammar School on Mount Pleasant Hill overlooking the school attended later by Rowan Williams. At the time, rivalry between the two boys Grammar schools resulted in Dynevorians being dubbed "Dynevor, dull forever!"
Posted by David Vivian on February 10, 2008 1:10 PM
Report this comment The reality is that British law has nothing to do even with Christian values! Which means that Sharia law is not competing with Christian law because there is none.
As such, British law is not a devine law and it has its own numerous flaws (people are mixing liberal values and law). Our jails are CROWDED and criminals are being let out because there are no cells where to keep them locked. HOW are you going to solve this? I am listening!
Posted by Messy on February 10, 2008 1:09 PM
Report this comment Williams is a loose cannon that should be fired as he is just not the right calibre for the job.
Posted by Paul J. Weighell on February 10, 2008 1:06 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop's comments were well-meant but ill-judged. The sooner the church is disestablished and the law based on entirely secular principles, the better.
Posted by Kalpana on February 10, 2008 1:05 PM
Report this comment Don't bash Williams. He is indeed a far-sighted genius and dared to speak on the unspeakable. Blame the politicians over the last 60 years, particularly all the past prime ministers and home secretaries, for bringing about the disaster the nation is heading.
Posted by James Wong on February 10, 2008 1:05 PM
Report this comment The Queen, as Head of the Church of England, should sack the Archbishop of Canterbury. And if, in this day and age the Monarch has not the authority to do that, there should be a means of Impeaching him. He is more than a disgrace - he is dangerous and treacherous.
ALL who live in this country are, and will continue to be, subject to British Law. Those who want Sharia Law, or elements of it, should go and live in a country where it's practiced - and take that abominable Rowan Williams with you!
Posted by CathyK on February 10, 2008 12:59 PM
Report this comment Any form of appeasement over Sharia Law will inevitably lead to further demands for "Just a little bit more understanding of Islamic needs" until one day we wake up and find ourselves in an Islamic state with full Sharia Law in all its barbarity.
Posted by Harry Basset on February 10, 2008 12:57 PM
Report this comment Time to go, Row. I knew when I first heard Rowan Williams speak that he was a TWAT, albeit an educated one. He should be shunted off back into Academia where he can theorise and agonise to his heart's content until the ivy grows over him but from where he can do less harm. Were Sharia proponents to be accommodated in Britain it would be tantamount to a return to the Dark Ages. Magna Carta would be used to start a bonfire which would spread and eventually engulf what was once an enlightened and civilised Nation.
Posted by J Mac on February 10, 2008 12:53 PM
Report this comment I am relieved this debate has come to the fore because it was beginning to feel that islam was gaining a foothold, however tenuous, in the UK. Although an atheist, I am also relieved to see there are powerful quarters in our country that are in a position to speak out as it would seem our politicians have too many to appease. Perhaps Williams has indirectly found a way to give a voice to those who are in the best position to protect and unite those who wish to defend our british culture - I can, and will, support the church in this matter.
Posted by Nibbles on February 10, 2008 12:50 PM
Report this comment There is hardly any Muslim country where Sharia is enforced in its real sense, so how it can work in Britain. This is nothing more than a way of dividing and creating more confusion. Let us first try to become good Muslims individually and think of something like this.
Posted by anwar on February 10, 2008 12:35 PM
Report this comment I agree entirely with the points made in Matthew d'Ancona's excellent article in today's Sunday Telegraph. Rowan Williams has "missed the point-our justice system is the best guarantee of fairness that ethnic minorities could have".
Dr Willaims should return to the dusty world of academia where he belongs and let us have a strong and clear-sighted leader who will support Christian values in this country.
Posted by Marie-Anne on February 10, 2008 12:34 PM
Report this comment If Sharia law is introduced you better be careful what name your kids give their teddy bear.
Posted by Jim on February 10, 2008 10:56 AM
Report this comment Sharia will come about as and when it is voted for. Demographics will win out, one way or the other. It's called democracy.
Posted by Neil on February 10, 2008 10:56 AM
Report this comment Let us not forget the uproar that Labour tried to create about the then Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, being able to select and/or recommend the choice of Bishops and Archbishops. They believed it then, and so took the chance to practise it when thay got into power. Williams is Tony Blair's man, Blair's idea of what the C of E should be, and Williams star has now fallen with that of his mentor. The poor fellow simply hasn't realised it yet. Multiculturalism was massacred in the field of 7/7, but there are still some fanatical pockets of resistance holding out.
Sorry Rowan, you haven't kept up with the world, and it's time to retire.
Posted by Richard Cooper on February 10, 2008 10:15 AM
Report this comment He is titled 'Doctor.' In my opinion, only people in the 'sciences' should be so called. Not people in the arts and religion.
He is a buffoon, not a Doctor
Posted by Ralph Simpson on February 10, 2008 9:16 AM
Report this comment Might I point out to peter jarrett that there were
"Conservative Party" governments 1951 - 1964, so the
mass immigrations then were not under Labour's control?
The racist Commonwealth Immigration Act of 1968
introduced by Callaghan as Home Secretary was widely
trailed in effect, so there was quite an increase in the rate
of influx before it, largely of people who worried that they
would be excluded in the future.
Posted by Quietzapple on February 10, 2008 9:14 AM
Report this comment Australia calling all Brits. No Aussies would every put up with this intolerable BS - not for a second. Our politico/social/legal system mirrors the UK's of old so if you want to have the security you once had at home, you'll have to fly 24 hrs Downunder where sanity prevails. We have plenty of jobs.
Posted by harry who on February 10, 2008 7:16 AM
Report this comment NO NO NO NO, why should we change for people who decided to live in our country, they should put up or shut up and perhaps think of living in a muslim country, where they would have to toe the line or else????
Posted by roubrah on February 10, 2008 7:05 AM
Report this comment Very few in this country have any confidence in Williams's style of leadership. Furthermore people have had enough of the incessant debate around one "religion" and one "religion" only - and it's certainly not Christianity. In any case, the last incumbent of Williams's office has roundly contradicted Williams's silly recommendations. He ought to resign immediately - or be asked to leave.
God help us all!
Posted by Richard Sibbald on February 10, 2008 4:29 AM
Report this comment Dr Williams should come and study how this dual system of law works in Malaysia. It doesn't work. It caused a lot of problems. If I have a choice, I would want to be govern under the English law not Sharia. But as it is, I have no choice.
Posted by Siti on February 10, 2008 3:54 AM
Report this comment No ! we have a proper Law system here already and any one coming here should abide by it , as we would in there's . Its with this in mind i read that the goverment has allowed Muslim men with more than one wife to claim benifits for them. Bigamy is a crime isn't it? punished by 7yrs in prison. Or does this just apply to non muslims ?
Posted by John Brereton on February 9, 2008 6:52 PM
Report this comment I am English, I live in England, I abide by English laws.Muslims living in England must do the same , no difference. If they want Sharia laws ,move to a Muslim country, ruled by Sharia law,and take Dr Williams with you.
Posted by Alan on February 9, 2008 6:45 PM
Report this comment This fruitcake in a frock should go and find a
New Age Commune to live, where his wierd ideas
are acceptable.
Posted by Addie Nuff on February 9, 2008 6:44 PM
Report this comment Dr Williams is a loose cannon (no pun intended). This is not the first time he has said silly naive things. The man should be made to resign. He is dangerous.
Posted by Cal on February 9, 2008 6:29 PM
Report this comment I cannot believe that such an educated man as Dr Williams would accuse his peers of not understanding what he said. I think it would do him some good if he were to go to any country were Sharia law is practiced and suggest to those in charge that they adopted part of the Christian way of life into their system he would get a reaction that he would not possibly understand. Let those who wish to live in our society do so and while doing so they obey our laws and way of life.
Posted by G. T. O Mara on February 9, 2008 5:12 PM
Report this comment Confirmation that Lambeth Palace has ivory towers.
Or are they minarets?
How utterly preposterous.
Posted by Patriot on February 9, 2008 5:06 PM
Report this comment Where is this man coming from? Which planet? If he was niaive enough to believe he could blithely say Britain could/should embrace sharia law, and not expect a reaction, then he is not entitled to his seat. He should resign NOW.
Posted by Beth Wests on February 9, 2008 4:49 PM
Report this comment Britain and sharia law are mutually incompatible it's as simple as that. If anyone wants sharia they should leave this country immediately. As far as the Archbishop is concerned I am almost not surprised as he seems to be from another planet.
Posted by Mr M Class on February 9, 2008 4:27 PM
Report this comment So the good Archbishop wants to introduce a little bit of Sharia in Britain.
I wonder how that is supposed to work, since the whole Sharia, including its is unequal status for women and non-muslims, its brutal punishments including the death penalty for homosexuality or leaving the religion, is dictated by god, i.e. non-negotiable.
A little bit of Sharia is like being a little bit pregnant. Maybe the archbishop believes in that, too?
Posted by Willi Brix on February 9, 2008 4:21 PM
Report this comment The Bishop knows that those who want to see Sariha law in this country also want their own courts and punishments! Their is only one court and one law in this country regardless of how stupidly it is sometimes applied. The Bishop's job if he has one is ti promote the Church of England. If nothing else he should be trying to convert many Muslims to Christianity. Eventually and definatly the UK will become a Muslim country, perhaps not in our lifetimes but sooner rather than later, one only has to look in some of the school rooms in our country to see there the next generations are coming from and polititians still are blind. It is not white families who are breading our future. Muslims will inherit and those white people left will be heroin addicts. The Bishop should go and be replaced by somone who will build the Anglican church!
Posted by Ray B on February 9, 2008 3:55 PM
Report this comment For all that is decent for Gods sake man GO
Posted by terry on February 9, 2008 3:25 PM
Report this comment No it is NOT unavoidable. because we the people of England don't want any part of it. God help us all is any part no matter how small of Sharia Law was incorporated into our legal system. I live in England, I am English and I respect our laws and culture. Let everyone who worships Islam and who lives in England comply and respect English Law and customes.
Posted by Barry Stoll on February 9, 2008 3:20 PM
Report this comment It is evident that the Archbishop spoke from a lamentable lack of knowledge of sharia.
Heaven forfend the introduction of it here. It is a totalitarian concept and one cannot choose to accept bits of it - one has to accept it all. To do so would sound the death knell for democracy here.
I am particularly concerned about the status of women under sharia law - their testimony in sharia court is worth half of that of a man - so to allow marital disputes to be resolved by sharia would be inimical to their human rights here.
The word for the Archbishop's behaviour is dhimmitude, and Islamists in Britain will welcome his air of subservience under the guise of political correctness.
I, however, do not. He does not speak for me.
dominic carman, perhaps so, but they would probably also give the woman 50 lashes for talking to a man who is not her relative, or even stone her to death.
Posted by Babs Barron on February 9, 2008 3:19 PM
Report this comment The hystaria that has been created proves that there is very little room in this country for someone to express his opinion.
Hasan on February 9, 2008 12:43 PM
But that is exactly what we all are doing...
In a peaceful way, on a blog.
There are no christians, atheists or anyone else in the streets with placards shouting for the blood of muslims, is there?
Posted by G Howard on February 9, 2008 3:14 PM
Report this comment Rowan Willliams must resign. Of course Sharia is
not inevitable as long as people think and religious fascism is controlled. The Church must
remove him immediately.
Posted by katharine ryan on February 9, 2008 3:11 PM
Report this comment Like the old saying goes give an inch and they will take a mile.If a bit of Sharia is allowed whats to stop the next bit and the next and so on.
Posted by Lulu on February 9, 2008 3:07 PM
Report this comment Has the Bishop ever heard of Pandora's box?
Posted by Vaal on February 9, 2008 3:04 PM
Report this comment I am very disappointed that the Archbishop of Canterbury, as the principal representative of the Church of England, seems to be more interested in meddling in matters on which he has not been asked to comment, than devoting his time to preaching the Christian message of eternal salvation through belief in Jesus Christ.
If Dr Williams feels that he is unable to do the job for which he is paid to do, then he should immediately resign his post.
Posted by Stuart Lyell on February 9, 2008 3:00 PM
Report this comment As a liberated, western woman, I shudder at the very thought of sharia law. It it something that belongs to the middle ages. Dr Williams must resign now or be removed from office. People who live in this country must abide by our laws or they are perfectly free to move elsewhere.
Posted by Val on February 9, 2008 2:57 PM
Report this comment The government and its agencies are devoting huge amounts of money to help Muslims "integrate" in the West. All of these will come to nothing, as Islam is their faith, and these efforts will wash over them.
What we don't seem to realise is that we do not have the right to tell Muslims in the West, how to behave, what to wear, or what is acceptable or not as regards homosexuality or women's freedom etc. Muslims believe what they believe, as their religion tells them to, and have no real choice in the matter. That is their human right, and we should respect that. It is patronising in the extreme for us to lecture them on these matters.
However, we do have the right to tell them to take their attitudes and go where such attitudes are acceptable. In this we will be doing everyone a favour, for I fear a civil war in Europe that will make Bosnia look like a garden party. This is inevitable, as Muslims are required by the Koran to wage war(Jihad) until Islam is dominant.
Posted by DaveP on February 9, 2008 2:57 PM
Report this comment I well remember the law being changed when I was young to allow certain people to wear turbans instead of crash helmets while riding motorcycles. I was furious at the time but have yet to see an example on two wheels ! How things have changed in our lovely old country.
Posted by Geoffrey Burnham on February 9, 2008 2:54 PM
Report this comment I am currently looking to change my denomination from Anglican to Catholic, and this statement from the Archbishop really is the last straw!
First,the church should keep out of politics. Secondly, I do not want to be part of a faith which sought it's foundations from a King's divorce. And last but not least I do not want to be a future member of the Anglican faith with any divorced King as its defender.
I know there are many issues in any denomination but for me these are my views. the Archbishop is walking on tender ground as it is so he should shut up!
Posted by John Marton on February 9, 2008 2:51 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop, in suggesting that Sharia law should be adopted in the UK, is clearly not thinking of the manner in which Christians are treated in many Islamic countries.
Additionally,comments like his will give the radical muslim element among us encouragement to continue their campaign.
Is it not likely that many Muslims are here in the UK because they do not want to live under Sharia law?
I always thought that the Archbishop's job was to defend the Church of England. Clearly I was wrong!.
Posted by Paul Viveash on February 9, 2008 2:45 PM
Report this comment Sharia law will never work in the UK but it is better if the british goverment adopt some of the shria law to make the UK a better place. The goverment should let the muslims have some of their laws in the UK
Posted by UK Citizen on February 9, 2008 2:45 PM
Report this comment Ecumenism can lead to "foot-in-mouth-up-to-the-kneecap" remarks such as those made by Dr. R. Williams. It sounded as if he just wants to make every resident of Great Britain "happy", no matter how incongruous his remarks. Does he prepare speeches ahead of time and study them for potential "trouble spots", or does he just spout off without thinking? As for whether the man should be removed from his religious office, that point occurred earlier than this. The moment that he declared the Incarnation of God (the Holy Nativity of Christ) to be a "legend", Dr. R. Williams permanently threw away his claim to be a Christian.
Posted by Antonia on February 9, 2008 2:40 PM
Report this comment The law in this country applies to everyone, regardless of faith. If people prefer to live under a different legal system they should either move to a country which has their preferred system in place or work at getting this country's laws changed. A separate strand of law, voluntary or not, is not the answer and it should never become the answer.
Posted by j d stanley on February 9, 2008 2:39 PM
Report this comment Looking at you all from America, I have noticed that France was the first to be conqured by Islam. You, dear British, are the second. Remember, the victors always set the terms of the surrender and your nation is surrendering. Maybe you and France would have been better off had you lost WW2.
Posted by Dr Evans on February 9, 2008 2:39 PM
Report this comment As already touched upon in Australia, if you don't like the laws in the U.K or anything along those lines then leave. It's not difficult, why should the people living here change their ways to yours if you choose to move to the U.K? By choosing to move here you agree to the laws of the U.K, not of any other country.
Posted by F.B on February 9, 2008 2:29 PM
Report this comment Sharia law has no place in the world (universe), let alone the UK. If leaders give them an inch, they will take a mile. If they want to live under that law, go back to where they came from. Those who believe under Sharia should not expect other countries to accept them and their laws. If they can't live by the law of the country, UK or USA, or anywhere else, then they should not have left their country in the first place.
Posted by Priscilla Allison on February 9, 2008 2:24 PM
Report this comment To British Muslim: 10:57.
Sir, I believe you will have to take into account why people here seem ‘hot-headed’ to you. It is only in recent years that people in the UK have taken a dim view of your brand of religion, but perhaps you have yourselves to blame for that. This is after all their country, and a Christian one at that, and as it is still a democracy they can believe or not in anything they like. But Muslims haven’t exactly endeared themselves to the nation by their behaviour, and I don’t need to go into the violence some of your co religionists have brought to these shores, all in the name of a religion that is alien to the average English citizen. They have been exposed to the very worst Muslims have to offer, but offer it they did and now this Archbishop has been pounced upon for remarks made that bolster in part some of the laws of Sharia and the inevitability of it coming soon to a government near you. I have no doubt that there are aspects of your Sharia law that are good, but unfortunately people have chosen not accept them because they have their own laws of the land and they want to keep them, and indeed why not as this is their country and they want one set of laws for all. But further to that, they have been presented with the medieval and violent nature of a religion that Muslims themselves accept and want no part of it, and in essence who can blame them? You wrote “Calm Down everybody. Just because someone mentions the word Sharia, we don't all have to hit the ANGRY button”. The astonishing lesson for me is their remarkable calm considering what is at stake. Don’t accuse them of anger when the reality is the very future of their country, and via these posts they are telling you they reject any offer of having Sharia law, in part or whole, acceptable to them or enshrined in English Law, regardless of what the government of Mr. B & Co dose behind their backs.
Posted by Maura Collins. on February 9, 2008 2:19 PM
Report this comment Because the Archbiship speaks with such gravitas and has the cultivated appearance of the classic intellectual, we assume, possibly wrongly, that his comments must be well reasoned and have great importance. In times when commitment to the Christian faith in the UK is less than optimal, perhaps he should consider where his priorities lie and show real leadership by concentrating on preaching the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with the aim of persuading ALL our citizens of its singular, fundamental truth.
Posted by Moira Brown on February 9, 2008 2:19 PM
Report this comment "The Archbishop has made a grave mistake by even floating such a radical idea.
He then tries to mitigate his words by saying that we should not accept the harsher aspects of Sharia law, but by opening the door slightly he would be encouraging the extremists to start pushing for a separate state.
He has dealt another blow to the Anglican church".
Posted by RHV (Rodney Vincent) on February 9, 2008 2:11 PM
Report this comment All religion is tripe, the Archbishop of Canterbury
and Sharia law are therefore just different
manifestations of tripe. He also has a beard, I
think this is significant.
Posted by Dave Roberts on February 9, 2008 2:10 PM
Report this comment Sharia law, in any form MUST not be allowed. It is the thin end of the wedge, leading to an ultimate takeover by Muslims, as history shows.. they chip away until ultimately the state is so weakened that they have the whip hand. I blame Labour for allowing mass immigration. This could have been prevented in the 1950s and 1960s. Peter.
Posted by Peter Jarrett on February 9, 2008 2:02 PM
Report this comment If the Archbishop really believes that the leaders of the Muslim faith would even consider the sort of compromises his musings imply then he really is not of this planet.
What the CoE needs is a charismatic leader, not an academic poseur.
Posted by Tony Tickle on February 9, 2008 1:42 PM
Report this comment Chamberlain capitulated to the Nazis; Williams to the Muslims. I look forward to the emergence of the next Churchill.
Posted by David Johnson on February 9, 2008 1:38 PM
Report this comment The hystaria that has been created proves that there is very little room in this country for someone to express his opinion.
Posted by Hasan on February 9, 2008 12:43 PM
Report this comment If you believe in freedom the islamification of western societies must be avoided at any cost. The archbishop is sewing the seeds of hatred - he must step down - or be removed.
Posted by clive wilson on February 9, 2008 12:41 PM
Report this comment If the man has one shred of decency, he should resign immediately. Sharia law belongs in other countries, not here.
Posted by Terry Cooper on February 9, 2008 12:27 PM
Report this comment I welcome the Archbishop's comments, as they
prove the quantum theory prediction of parallel
universes. One up for science, then!
Posted by steph on February 9, 2008 12:11 PM
Report this comment As a regular CoE attender, I had reservations at the time Rowan Williams was appointed archbishop. His philosophical musings had caused enough problems within the Church. Now they are wreaking havoc outside it.
Posted by Frank on February 9, 2008 12:02 PM
Report this comment Enoch Powell was right ...
Posted by Scott Mebeat on February 9, 2008 11:54 AM
Report this comment Outrageous statement by the archbishop who now must resign. This is a christian country with christian values, no other religious laws will be accepted in this country and all ethnic minorities are required to abide by the present law.
Posted by Toni Rivans on February 9, 2008 11:50 AM
Report this comment Is Sharia law in the UK inevitable? It is if we continue to follow the path of appeasement already so well trodden by multi-culti, politically correct, lefty liberal "leaders".
Posted by Chris Ames on February 9, 2008 11:44 AM
Report this comment Surely sharia law is here already. As I understand it muslim men are now allowed by law to have three wives and we as tax payers will pay for each wife. But for an man of another faith or non at all will be liable to a bigamy charge.
Posted by brian pritchard on February 9, 2008 11:36 AM
Report this comment Its time the populist majority really get there point across, we are'nt at the marathon moment yet it seems, but demcracy is under attack.
no sharia over here
Posted by simon on February 9, 2008 11:31 AM
Report this comment I have read some of the comments and it seems most commentators have little of no idea of Sharia or exactly what the Archbishop said. No-one is suggesting chopping off of hands will be part anything acceptable in the UK. But some parts of Sharia law can easily be taken into consideration and as long as it is in the area of civil law and not criminal law and both parties agree to abide by the results then I cannot see what the problem is. My home may be in Scotland but I have worked in Saudi Arabia for ovber ten years and in the Middle East for over 30 years so I do have a pretty good idea of aspects of Sharia law.
Posted by Richard Kent on February 9, 2008 11:25 AM
Report this comment This man is an embarrassment to both the Church of England and the country.
The CoE has lost its way ever since he was appointed to his current position.
I have lived in a country where Sharia law was the law of the land and it was not for me - hence my return to the UK.
Posted by GM Lindsay on February 9, 2008 11:23 AM
Report this comment Williams should be sacked. The UK doesn't need to change it's laws. Immigrants need to learn to respect the laws and customs of the UK. If they don't, then they should leave.
Posted by Kris on February 9, 2008 11:21 AM
Report this comment 50 years ago the Muslim population in Britain was insignificant. There is no reason why it should not be insignicant again in another 50 years or less. The adoption of, or any accomodation with Sharia Law is perfectly avoidable. Nothing is inevitable. The question is whether the British people want Islam in these islands?
Posted by Andrew Parfitt on February 9, 2008 11:17 AM
Report this comment You actually need a higher degree in theology or law to understand the lecture that Dr Williams gave. It was definitely not intended for "mass consumption".
Having said that, Dr Williams is Archbishop of Canterbury. In a way it is encouraging that people still do listen to what an Archbishop has to say.
And a very learned, academic lecture like this is bound to be misinterpreted. You just look at the heading "Islam and English Law" - and then pick out what you want. Journalists are not legal scholars, but they do know what sells newspapers (and therefore pays their salaries).
Dr Williams should have talked to Pope Benedict about how you deal with issues involving Islam. The Pope would doubtless have told him to be very careful. You can say things in a university like setting, but words can ignite passions, and real people die as a result, and real churches are burnt down.
That is a pastoral issue. The Anglican Church has long had a very honourable tradition of the scholar-priest, but is this model suitable for modern conditions? As I am not an Anglican myself, I have to leave that to be decided within the sturctures of that church.
Posted by Maurice on February 9, 2008 11:16 AM
Report this comment We would't have this problem at all if our laws were still enshrined in Christian values, as they have been for centuries.
The problems and contradictions have arisen since the imposition of this secular value system (if you can call it a value system) which tries to reconcile itself with the multi-cultural/faith society our political elites have imposed on the majority.
Wherever Muslims are pushing for special consideration, the response from the supposed leader of the Church of England should not be to wring hands and gurgle about how they can be accomodated, but to push back and reiterate that we are a Christian country and they are welcome to go elsewhere if they wish to enact their medeival practices.
Posted by Notty on February 9, 2008 11:10 AM
Report this comment Those who want to live under shara have two choices- one is called Heathrow and the other Gatwick! Choose your best option.
Posted by John Varley on February 9, 2008 10:56 AM
Report this comment The Sharia is not a monster, Dr Williams knows better than any of us what is the sharia, simply he is seeking peace between various religons in the UK, at the same time it's a step forward in inter religeon's debate, by means of recognizing one an other.Islam is a peaceful religeon needs to be studied with transperancy and neutralally, and to those who just oppose for alergic factors and accumilation of unjustified haterate I say: a Moslim is not a Moslim if he doesn't believe in Prophet Jesus, Mosus and all other prophets.
Our respond must be counted, as this world is created for all humans dispite their colors or others.
Posted by Mohamed on February 9, 2008 10:51 AM
Report this comment The Sharia is not a monster, Dr Williams konws better than any of us what is the sharia, simply he is seeking peace between various religons in the UK, at the same time it's a step forward in inter religeon's debate, by means of recognizing one an other.Islam is a peaceful religeon needs to be studied with transperancy and neutralally, and to those who just oppose for alergic factors and accumilation of unjustified haterate I say: a Moslim is not a Moslim if he doesn't believe in Prophet Jesus, Mosus and all other prophets.
Our respond must be counted, as this world is created for all humans dispite their realgeons colors or others.
Posted by Mohamed on February 9, 2008 10:50 AM
Report this comment Williams should resign. Isn`t the head of the Anglian Church supposed to be a Christian?
Particularly at this time, we need a Churchill not a Chamberlain.
Posted by Mike Webster on February 9, 2008 10:50 AM
Report this comment What on earth is the UK coming to, we have our laws, developed and implemente over countless years and they should be the one and only laws of our Nation.
Anyone who chooses to come and make their home in the UK should do so on the understanding that they adapt to our way life of life and accept the laws of the Country. If they dont like that way of living the door is open for them to return to their own countries and abide by their own laws.
Posted by James on February 9, 2008 10:42 AM
Report this comment When Henry Vlll was declared defender of the new faith it did not include islam nor was there any intention of including any other religion. Right up until around 1960 this was the case, with successive soverigns defending our religion. Then it started - slowly at first but with gathering momentum we were informed that Her Majesty was defender of all faiths and not just that of the Church of England. To be defender of all faiths means that not faith can be defended against another so why have a defender of the faith at all?If Her Majesty is indeed defender of the faith she needs to get her act together and start defending it.
Posted by John DeVries on February 9, 2008 10:42 AM
Report this comment As a french and a Roman Catholic, I am not concerned by the antics
of the Archbishop of Canterbury were it not for the fact that
they can only accelerate the exodus of the few Anglicans left into the fold of Rome.
In this drifting world of ours where even archbishops seem to have lost their mark, if not their marbles, Pope Benedikt remains faithful to his mission: to be the rock that
looks on tempests and is never shaken. In Europe, He only, seems to be the last branch we can cling to with some hope.
Posted by Jean-Bernard Brisset on February 9, 2008 10:26 AM
Report this comment It is my understanding that people come here who have a claim to be British, or who are persecuted or live in genuine fear in their own countries. Being British surely means to be governed by the secular laws of this country. If a person chooses to come here of their own free will and then tries to turn Britain into a parody of their own country, why not stay where they are in the first place.
Posted by Glenda Durant on February 9, 2008 10:23 AM
Report this comment There are a lot of comments critising the archbishop and a few sticking up for him. Personally I think his views on the matter are irrelevant. He believes in a non-entity. Aetheism is the way forward if we want a continuing modern society. It was only when we threw off the shackles of the church that we made any progress. If we removed the pretense of religion we would see what it really is; a method of gaining power when logical reasoning is no good. The sooner we become intolerant of all religions the better. We already section those people who hear voices telling them to kill others. What difference does it make if that voice has a name of God/Allah?
Posted by Religious intolerance: a good thing! on February 9, 2008 10:18 AM
Report this comment Dr Williams is a member of a recognized profession and thus he should be aware of the differences between a code of conduct and a code of practice.As Bristish citizens our code of conduct is effectively the law of the land and applies equally to all.We are fortunate that as a country we tolerate many codes of practice.As a practicing member of the Church of Englad I would not accept a sharia code of practice,nor would I expect a muslim to accept a christian one.Dr Wiliams current outburst is clearly unprofessional and he should do the decent thing..resign.
Posted by Peter Professional on February 9, 2008 10:13 AM
Report this comment Thank goodness for the Pope who knows which side he should defend and stands up for Catholics and Christians. Dr Williams should think before he opens his mouth; and what about stirring up anti-Islam feelings; did he think about that!
Posted by anna on February 9, 2008 10:07 AM
Report this comment Yes. Britain does, however, need to get to grips with the situation. There will be a revolution soon and then the decision as to which way the UK, and Europe for that matter, will go.
If muslims wish to live under this sharia law, then go where it's practiced.
Posted by Graham Spurrier on February 9, 2008 10:07 AM
Report this comment The United Kingdom as yet remains a Christian country which has absorbed many immigrant cultures with their personal religious faiths.
There is a stark difference in researchers into intenational laws suggesting usage of any laws or ammendments in/to UK law of any valuable components of other nation's laws, and adopting any Muslim law where their is a difference in who it can be applied to.
As a means of convenience will we see people who aren't Muslim becoming Muslim when it suits them?
In most Arab states one cannot even take in a Bible or Christian prayer book, therefore it begs a question - Are we in UK enjoying a period of complete un occupied and lazy luxury (with an abundance of spare time) that we dis regard all the important UK social welfare reforms in favour of adopting Overseas laws.
Posted by Jay on February 9, 2008 10:06 AM
Report this comment There is no need for Sharia Law in Britain or in any Christian country.If the Churches were not afraid to publicise the Ten Commandments, instead of the Summary of the Law- I have been a regualr churchgoer for 40 years and have only once heard the Ten read out- then people would know what was proper acceptable conduct. If the Churches were not so desperate to get people through the doors at all costs they would stand up for what they are supposed to believe, at the expense of alienating people who do not care about what being a Christian should mean. I have been on the verge of resigning from the Church of England for years, not that anyone would notice if I did, as I'm only a pew-occupier. I've found more teaching on what the Bible actually means in practice from reading Anglican Homilies online than in at least 20 years of sermons.
The Church of England gives the impression of being in dire need of going back to its roots and practising what it claims to preach, in the 39 articles. I would like to challenge His Grace to run the C of E by the 39 articles, with no modern additions or subtractions, for a year. And I would like to know his reasons why this cannot be done, and is not being done at present.
Posted by Malinda Law on February 9, 2008 10:04 AM
Report this comment My position is that I am a Christian and regular church attender but I strongly disagree with the remarks of the AoC. These are,totally wrong. There should be no altertative whatsover in this country other than British Law! Yes, I agree with others who advocate Rowan Williams removal from office. He is not fit to be Head of the Anglican Church.
Posted by Derek Taylor on February 9, 2008 10:00 AM
Report this comment The Archbishop in his naive lecture has now finally, hopefully, sown the seeds whereby all true English men and English women with any pride in our wonderful country start the up hill battle to claim back that country that thousands of our forebears went forth and laid down their lives to protect.
Those values now being eroded daily by these politically correct misguided individuals. As our local War Memorial states ' We died for England, live your life for her'.
We must not abuse the great sacrifice that they made.
Posted by Barry .W. Freake on February 9, 2008 9:55 AM
Report this comment The great British public has once again demonstrated its healthy disrespect for intellectuals. All well and good, as Dr Williams has proved himself one of an unholy trinity with his predecesoors Carey and Runcie in his sheer fatuousness. The archbishop is moreover, criminally irresponsible in his latest pronouncements. He should go back to the Groves of Academe, where he can plot in private, or at least pontificate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Posted by Tony B on February 9, 2008 9:38 AM
Report this comment Sharia Law in this country is totally avoidable if the majority of people do not want it. Of course, it means getting up out of our cosy armchairs and letting our politicians know that the majority of people will not accept it, by casting our votes. I know in which direction my vote will be cast.
Posted by Lynn on February 9, 2008 9:37 AM
Report this comment Ted Seres
"Do Muslim nations accomodate laws of other religions in their legal structure?"
Yes they do.Followers of other religions have always had their own autonomous court systems in Muslim lands and in many countries still do.
Posted by Munir Azam on February 9, 2008 9:35 AM
Report this comment It is time to stand up to all religious nutters and make it clear that British culture today is based on Science not myths.
If people wish to follow a faith that is up to them. But the law should apply to all.
We cannot have every Sect with its own laws and indeed policing.
We tried Puritism years ago and firmly rejected it.
Posted by Ray Harhar on February 9, 2008 9:10 AM
Report this comment I have disagreed with Dr Williams on another thread on this
topic.
His didactic remarks are the sort of thing one should expect of a
prelate, that is what they are for.
Anyone who joins any church solely because they agree with one
of its leaders has wasted their time.
Perhaps they should have paid up for some fan club instead?
The state should get out of the C of E, and all religious courts,
including Jewish ones, and the C of E ones which deal with
Church matters also, should be reviewed.
I support a more secular state, and believe that Christianity
would benefit from disestablishment of the C of E.
Posted by Quietzapple on February 9, 2008 9:10 AM
Report this comment If Sharia law is allowed then vigilante justice is equally valid as it has if anything more support.
An equally important point is that if Moslems are allowed to return to the barbaric practices of a remote past then so should Christians. Who will then be organising the public burnings of these heretics or is barbarism to be limited to a one sided freedom?
Posted by D Cage on February 9, 2008 7:40 AM
Report this comment It is right to give sanctuary to those from other countries who live in fear of their lives and it is right to share with them. However, when a person ( or persons) decides to reside here in this country the law of the land should be freely adopted by all immigrants. They should accept that the indigenous people's faith, politics and the law were all here centuries before them. I always respect these in the countries I visit therefore our leaders in whatever capacity they represent us should uphold them for us as our home country, if I may say is slowly eroding away into a place which may soon no longer belongs to us.
Posted by colleen antrobus on February 9, 2008 7:22 AM
Report this comment Of course Sharia law is avoidable,indeed it has no place in the UK.The A of C should remember his place,being the religious head of the Anlican church does not usurp parliament.
Posted by syd cartwright on February 9, 2008 6:53 AM
Report this comment For those who haven't, (and there appear to be many) here's an idea, try READING the speech you are commenting on before opening your mouth. His comments were clearly more intelligent and subtle than is being reported.
Full text: link
You don't actually have to agree with the bishop's views to see that he is being very badly and unfairly treated by a sensationalist press, a knee-jerk Church and most importantly, a mob-mentality public who are perfectly willing to hang someone first and ask questions later.
Posted by Sasha Mills on February 9, 2008 6:52 AM
Report this comment Mr Williams should be fired as soon as possible. He should convert to the Muslim doctrines. This is England not the far east. England is a Christian country. Those who want Sharia law, should go to the countries where it is practised. I am shocked that the head of my church would betray us. He most definately is not a leader. Get rid of him. C.J.Reed
Posted by Christine J. Reed on February 9, 2008 6:36 AM
Report this comment Egad. I do hope my Nan doesn't hear of this. She's 98 ( God bless 'er ), and I do say that this might well be enough. Thank God she's near deaf.
Posted by Mark Redrup on February 9, 2008 5:58 AM
Report this comment the honourable thing to do realising the disquiet the Arch Bishop has caused, is to
*retract what was said
*apologise
*resign
*forego all pension rights on the grounds of conduct unbefitting
Posted by j bloggs on February 9, 2008 5:57 AM
Report this comment What the hell is happening to Britain?
That anyone would even consider modifying English common law, (a legal system that is without precedent in the world) to accommodate Sharia laws to satisfy muslim immigrants is unthinkable. If immigrants to Britain want to live there they should accept the laws of the land they are immigrating to.. If they don't like it LEAVE.
Posted by John Baker on February 9, 2008 4:54 AM
Report this comment It is Islam which must change, not England. Christianity is a tolerant, civilized religion because the Reformation led to the separation of Church and State, conscience and temporal power. Islam's reformation is incomplete. We must not add to their confusion and pain by supporting calls for Sharia - political Islam.
Posted by Eric Worrall on February 9, 2008 4:52 AM
Report this comment WILLIAMS SHOULD BE SACKED IMMEDIATELY.
HE HAS NO BUSINESS TO REMAIN AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND.
Posted by ARVIND LAXMAN APTE on February 9, 2008 3:59 AM
Report this comment
Is sharia law in Britain "unavoidable"?
To paraphrase George Orwell:"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."
Posted by Phil Anscombe on February 9, 2008 12:42 AM
Report this comment This is just the beginning in the not to distant future they will challeneg the validity of their laws. Cam you imagine when a child or adult is convicted under an allegedly illegal Sharia Court and punishment is adminsitered to the offender within the UK. What then Gordy? Are you going to allow them to continue. What possible argument in a free democracy exists for legitamizing that kind of behaviour. Worse still if the offender happens to be a home grown Britih citizen.
But that day will come and how are you going to deal with it then. Already the luvvies, and woollies are contemplating the thought.....
Posted by slidingbye on February 8, 2008 11:36 PM
Report this comment I believe that Dr Williams is a very learned and knowledgable man. To say the truth I was quite surprised by his comments but realistically speaking I believe Britain could benefit from some aspects of Sharia law. Certainly we will need to learn Sharia law when it comes into dealing with financial transactions with corporations that adopt adopt a Sharia compliancy policy including but bot limited to banks, insurance companies, investment funds, etc. Muslims living in Britain would benefit from the inheritance, marriage and divorce procedures, and adoption found in Sharia law. I do not believe that we should have two sets of laws in this country but that the one law that governs this country should recognise aspects of Sharia law that would benefit its people Muslim and non Muslim alike especially with the growing influence that globalisation has on commerce and social interaction
Posted by Alex on February 8, 2008 11:32 PM
Report this comment The poverty of the Telegraphs coverage of this issue is breathtaking - I rarely buy the Telegraph but I diod today and was shocked at the poor quality of the journalism and the inhumanity of the approach. Whatever happened to well researched, thoughtful and, above all, accurate reporting? The real issue here is not Rowan Willimas careful and moderate comments, opening up a crucial public debate, but the extremism of many of the reactions to what he said.
T Evans
Posted by T Evans on February 8, 2008 11:22 PM
Report this comment Has everybody forgotten 9/11? Has everybody forgotten WWII? Has everybody forgotten the killings in the London underground? Islam is an openly aggressive and intollerant religion which preaches that we infidels have to submit to Islam and if we don't it is allowed to kill us. Is everybody blind, don't you see what is happening in Europe? Islam wants to conquer Europe and impose Islamic law which is in absolute contrast to our Christian values and to libertarian values. Islam is the new Nazism and Europe has learned nothing. Liberty has to be defended, our free democracies have to be defended and we have to fight to keep Islamic law out of Europe. Muslims wanting to live in Europe have to submit to our laws and regulations and if they do they are free to excercise their confession. If they don't there is no place for them. Another thing: Christians are persecuted and killed in the middle east. Bibles are confiscated at the airport in Saudi Arabia. No churches can be build in Islamic countries. Can you see why being tollerant with the intollerant is stupid and very very dangerous or do we need another Winston Churchil to tell us?
Posted by Guido Benedini on February 8, 2008 11:20 PM
Report this comment Will the Sharia Courthouse be in a no go area
Posted by joe on February 8, 2008 11:20 PM
Report this comment There are dozens of private courts which operate in most western countries, such as physicians sitting in judgement on malpractice cases; lawyers disbarring those who fail to maintain the standards of their profession; Jewish courts whose participants sign agreements to abide by the decisions of the court's judges; members of Parliament accused of corrupt behaviour by their peers. Sharia law, provided that it is not misinterpreted by extremists, is no better or worse than any other form of justice. Once again, I am stunned by the sheer ignorance of people who have no idea of what happens outside their own little Englander world.
If you want to see an example of a different justice system, visit a Scottish court and see a different form of justice at work; a system from which England has seen fit to borrow some of its concepts. Time to catch up with the 21st century and get a life.
Posted by Michael in Vancouver on February 8, 2008 11:16 PM
Report this comment The UK should have British laws not the laws of a religion but of a nation
Posted by Elliot Reay on February 8, 2008 11:15 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop's position puts me in mind of Nicodemus, who went to Jesus in the middle of the night because he was afraid of the reaction from his own Sanhedrin.
Like Nicodemus, the Archbishop accurately perceives that there are issues to be addressed. Unlike Nicodemus, and thanks to Jesus Christ, he and the rest of us still live in a time and place where it is, in a manner of speaking, safe to air those issues.
He is suggesting that British law can accommodate Islam. That is far less shocking than what has already taken place. British law is accommodating atheistic consumerism, which is a corrupt version of hedonism.
Such democracy as we enjoy is founded on Christian values and Christian values alone. Every further step British law takes away from its Christian roots is a step backwards towards anarchy.
The Archbishop's “gaffe” is better for Britain than any PM's speech of recent times if it starts a debate about where we and our laws are coming from and where they are going to.
Posted by solarsentinel on February 8, 2008 11:14 PM
Report this comment To Susan of Barry - The archbishop is not the head of the CofE, the Queen of England IS.
I am disgusted by the archbishops comments and he should go IMMEDIATELY. Religion has had its day, it came and has been around for over 2000 years, it is past its sell by date. Only a decade ago the Vatican officially acknowledged that the Earth orbited the Sun and not the other way round as it was believed by them.
Religion is a backward form of mass control and steps should be taken to abolish it completely. i have nothing against those who believe in a higher power but when their beliefs affect my way of life then I draw a line.
The UK law is based on the ten commandments which I find very worthy, but I have no time for the chopping of hands and stoning punishments which the Sharia law encourages.
Why hasn't the Queen spoken up about this - is she truly the head of the CofE or just another puppet in the grand scheme of things here in the UK
The archbishop is out of order, he should go. Preferably to Saudi Arabia where the Sharia law exists in full swing.
HE SHOULD GO - I BELIEVE THIS IS UNAMINOUS !!!
Posted by Stuart on February 8, 2008 11:14 PM
Report this comment I think most people expected immigrants who came to the west to bring their children up with western values and even have western names.
I don't accept cultural ghettos, i think you can not have complete freedom of speech and religion in a self perpetuating civilization.
Posted by Daniel K888 on February 8, 2008 11:04 PM
Report this comment What's unavoidable is the continuing decline in the influence of the clergy in law making, and a good thing too. The last manifestation was when the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster argued for an opt out from adoption law. The chap should have been put on a taxi to Heathrow, and told to choose the sort of banana republic where his sort could be accommodated.
Posted by Neal Drummond on February 8, 2008 10:59 PM
Report this comment I think we forget the values this country has. Primarily it is a so called Christian country, the Archbishop, a so called Christian leading this country in the values of Godly living, and following the commandments of Jesus making such a statement as we have heard today may need to re-think his own values. The Church in general has fallen asleep in this nation, and the result of this is people like the Rowan Williams who doesn't know what side of the fence he sits on being allowed to make such statement.
No wonder the nation is in the mess it is, when we have people like him poorly leading the faith.
Ward C Rowan, sit tight this won't hurt. There now you feel better!
Posted by Paul Smith on February 8, 2008 10:58 PM
Report this comment What a bunch of sabre rattling hotheads !! This is the same kind of mentality we saw from people when the teacher from Liverpool was imprisoned in Sudan. Except on that occasion the people were Sudanese. This time they're British !!
How about analysing what Dr Williams was asked and his response ? Actually, analysing is probably too indepth. How about just listening to it or reading a transcript ? No analysis required really, it's fairly straight forward. He's not suggesting anything more than what's already with us. For centuries the Beth Din has been operating in this country to address Orthodox Jewish issues. Fair game to them. In more recent times some form of muslim court system has been operating (Though it's the first I've heard of it ! And I'm a fairly orthodox middle-aged British born muslim.).
Calm Down everybody. Just because someone mentions the word Sharia, we don't all have to hit the ANGRY button.
Posted by BritishMuslim on February 8, 2008 10:57 PM
Report this comment Christian and Jewish minority lived in Muslim lands for centuries in peace and harmony because they were allowed to live according to their own laws. They still do.
The true intention of Archbishop is unknown to us but he certainly speaks the truth. Sharia is based upon natural justice. Archbishop is advocating that sharia may apply to those Muslim who choose it. It will only apply in matters of marriages, divorces, inheritances and issues of such personal nature. No hue and cry was raised when British Jewry was given the right to choose their own law.
In any case who is harmed if Muslim Brits wish to have sharia regulate their personal affairs. What difference does it make to the public if I choose to marry in a Masjid instead of a registrar’s office.
Almost everything said about Sharia on this forum and in the general media is false. As a Muslim Brit I fully support the Archbishop. I would love to know his true intentions though. Beware of Archbishops bearing gifts.
PS you will probably delete this post.
Posted by Masih Siddiqi on February 8, 2008 10:54 PM
Report this comment As an aside, lots of posts here talk about 'our democracy.'
What democracy. We are no longer a democracy. One word, referendum. We will very soon be a socialist super state / police state with an unelected government.
Posted by Karen on February 8, 2008 10:51 PM
Report this comment You are not imprisoned if you own a bible, in saudi arabia. Lol! Who told you that? I have been there on business trips, and I have mym bible with me all the time. As for talking to women, well, it happens there all the time, in public.
Why is it, that when it comes to Islam, the racism is brought out in everyone? You must remember, we are all equal in the sight of God, and this is not our land, but God's land.
In terms of Sharia law in muslim countries. Why are my fellow christians stopping muslims from practising sharia. Look at Somalia for example. A hort while ago, the inhabitants were abiding peacefully under sharia law. Then the ethiopians invaded.
In terms of immigrants, not all Muslims in the UK are immigrants, so saying they are immigrants is naive. There are many muslim converts living in the UK.
Lets have a little history lesson. When islam came to arabia, it brought equal rights to mean and women. women were raped and beaten, and treated as objects. Female babies were abanddones and often buried alive. Islam stopped all this. The purpose of the burka and niqab is to protect the female. It is also true that many women feel much safer in a burka. The burka and niqab is only meant to be worn out the house.
Sharia law would mean, cutting hands of thieves. Therefore no thieves. Killng rapists, so no rapists. It has many benefits. However, currently muslims are asking for only a tiny bit of sharia.
I have heard no muslim say that they want sharia incorporated into the english legal system, rather, separate sharia courts for matters such as marriage etc. These courts would only be for muslims.
Jesus took the price of our sins, so why are we still sinning, it is disrespectful to him. I do not want to hear slander and disrespectfulness to other religions. we must argue our points respectfully
Posted by Jonathan Alejandro on February 8, 2008 10:51 PM
Report this comment Could anyone have missed the point Dr. Williams was trying to make any more. because of all the tabloids completely miss quoting the man, everyone now thinks that he wishes sharia law to be imposed on all of us.
something that he never said.
what he was trying to say was that perhaps certain aspects of religious laws could help in civil disputes between certain members of a certain religion.
all in an attempt to make the idea of being British more palletable to those who find our legal system incompatible with there belief system.
If enough support could be found amongst the Muslim community (that is another debate entirely) then why not introduce certain aspects of civil law for these people?
I personally have no such time for a system but remember, there is a lot of brittish (yes thats Brittish, just by being Islamic you are not a foreigner)people who feel disenfranchised by the current system as it is not compatible with there beliefs.
these people are Brittish citizens too, and I think it is right that Dr. Williams started such a debate, for the reason that he put it "social cohesion"
Posted by Miles on February 8, 2008 9:47 PM
Report this comment The response to this is amazing. It goes to show that we the people are not represented in any way by our politicians. The Arch Bishops comments are a prime example of the liberal, wooly, soft touch nation we are turning into. This fuels racism, and it comes from people who are supposed to be our leaders. It beggers belief.
I wouldn't describe Britain as Christian any more. But the British way of life should be fought for as much as muslims fight for their way of life. We are extremely tolerant here, but there is only so much we can take. I am leaving the UK in a few weeks and I am really looking forward to getting away from the mess that is Britain. We have been let down time and time again by our government and it can only get worse. Sharia law is predominantly barbaric and has no place in this society. I suppose being 7000 miles away it wont be such a burden, but we need a different direction and some strong personalities in charge.
It's just so depressing.
Posted by Jim on February 8, 2008 8:26 PM
Report this comment Even in Sharia, there is no common consensus. There are four schools of Islamic Thought amongst Sunnis and all have different views on matters of marriage, divorce and inheritance.
Most Muslims in Britain are from Asia so follow the Hanafi school which recognises the practice of instant divorce or "Triple Talaq".
Arab Muslims follow the Hanbali school of thought so do not recognise the Hanafi form of divorce !
Of all the Muslim Countries, only Morocco has managed to codify sharia amongst all the schools of thought
with its new Moudawana (Family law).
So Sharia is unlikely ever to come into British law for the sole reason that there is no consensus amongst Islamic scholars because of the different schools of opinion.
Egypt, Pakistan have made some efforts of reform but again to some Islamic scholars, what might be not allowed in those countries maybe permitted in others, such as alimony until a women gets remarried or early age marriages etc.
Posted by S Kumar on February 8, 2008 8:15 PM
Report this comment for too many years much heartache and death has been caused in the name of religion. if there is ever to be peace in our time, religion should be treated and respected on an individual level, ones choice to practice and follow the relgion of indiviual choice.
should we not all stand back and take in the mess followers of certain religions has got the world in. the people who should be listened to and followed, are the people who practice their religion for the good of others and their own personal emotional gains. as for the head strong individuals who enforce their religion on the world, let them take to their own country and practice till their little hearts are content and leave decent people alone to get on with their lives without islam being forced upon us as they think is their right to do. companies like alton towers who put aside our own people and our own values as british citizens to keep the muslim faith happy should feel ashamed that they are only giving these people the chance to get another foothold in their fight to bring down the british way of life. you chose to live in britain you live like a britain, something we have learned british people have to do when they live over there. the immediate stand down of this man must come soon, while we can still right our views in this coloumn without fear.
Posted by june crichton on February 8, 2008 7:14 PM
Report this comment Immigrants into the UK are immigrants into the UK. It is up to them to fit in with the laws of this country, not for this country to adapt to them. I am an immigrant twice over - half Irish and half Lithuanian - but if it came to a civil war, I would fight to the death to prevent Sharia law from being introduced into this country.
Posted by Edmund Burke on February 8, 2008 6:40 PM
Report this comment Never mind that. The Archbishop must resign or be removed. He seems to have forgotten that he the senior religious figure in the COE. He obviously does not take his own church seriously. The process must begin for removal.
Posted by Daniel Sullivan on February 8, 2008 6:34 PM
Report this comment Hang on a minute. Certain aspects of Muslim law are not so stupid and we could eaisily incorportae it in to English law - indeed we should seriously consider this.
I think the first aspect we should incorporate is the chopping off of the hands of car theives, car radio theives, joy riders and house breakers.
Posted by Howard Floyd on February 8, 2008 6:29 PM
Report this comment RESIGN. GO!
Posted by Ridiculous Clergy on February 8, 2008 6:17 PM
Report this comment I didn't see this one coming. I expect this sort of claptrap to come from the Mad Mullahs' but from the head of the CoE. Colour me suprised.
Posted by Susan, Barry, S Wales on February 8, 2008 6:12 PM
Report this comment Williams is an idiot.
I want to live in the UK, not a Pakistan clone.
Posted by rog on February 8, 2008 6:10 PM
Report this comment I am VERy surprised that the Telegraph behaved like a "Redtop" in its comment on this. The main headline on the front page was not worthy of the Telegraph. Shame on you!This was a lecture to a group of academic lawyers, not a "political" statement, and was worthy of a more carefully thought out response by you. In addition to which the Archbishop as one of the most intelligent and thoughtful people in public life today deserved more respect for his views, however much you may disagree with him. The point he made, that many other religious groups have their "culture" respected by the law was not given enough emphasis.The law does not get involved with the rules of religious houses (monasteries and convents). The Orthodox Jewish Courts already make decisions which are respected by the law. If my wife applied to be a Priest in the Catholic Church and was turned down, as she would be for reasons we all understand, she would not expect to take the Church to court to claim that her "human rights" had been trampled on!It would be laughed out of court. Why should not the Muslim community have a similar status? Please rethink and re-balance the Telegraphs approach to this....and restore my confidence in you as a serious paper!
Posted by David Wiliams-Thomas on February 8, 2008 6:09 PM
Report this comment This is a horrifying idea, and evidence, were it required, that there are no depths that the Church of England will not plumb in its vain efforts to appear relevant.
Rather than contributing to the ever deepening sectarian divisions that are tearing our social fabric apart, the law in England, Wales and Scotland has, for a millenium, functioned as a unifying element that provides faith in a gradual, precedent-based development of jurisprudence and our rights as citizens.
If the established Church has any part at all to play in this debate, it should be to underpin the concept of one law for all, not to excavate its very bedrock.
Dr Williams has made a suggestion of breathtaking naiveté and stupidity, a monstrous and shameful betrayal.
Posted by Julian Beach on February 8, 2008 6:09 PM
Report this comment Both religion and politics have become so incredible, especialy when combined, that anyone that believes in either should be treated with the greatest care and be given as much mental care as is deemed neccesary by people who maintain contrary views. Or a GP if you can find one.
Posted by mike d on February 8, 2008 6:06 PM
Report this comment Sharia law is avoidable and not wanted in our Christian country. If people wish to live by Sharia law they should move to the appropriate country. As for Sharia courts helping in divorce cases, only the men would do well in these arbitrations, probably taking charge of all finances and the children. Women under Sharia law are the disadvantaged, they are much better off under the British Justice system. The Archbishop of Canterbury would do well to keep to spiritual matters and leave politics to the politicians. Time perhaps for a change in who chooses the Archbishop. Why not ask the Queen to choose, at least then we would not feel that the post was 'politicised'. At the very least the Archbishop is naive, and out of touch with the British people.
Posted by sylvia evans on February 8, 2008 6:04 PM
Report this comment Amazing how history repeats itself. Dr Williams' efforts to build a bridge between gentlemanly democracy on the one hand, and unyieding totalitarianism on the other, are reminiscent fo the Munich agreement of 1938.
Posted by Edmund Burke on February 8, 2008 5:59 PM
Report this comment Presumably immigrants from Muslim countries are in Britain to get away from Sharia law , thus to impose it upon them would be tyranny. Those who care about it have plenty of other countries from which to choose.
Posted by Realist on February 8, 2008 5:36 PM
Report this comment I believe the point here is that Britain is a democracy the laws of this country are made by a goverment ellected by the people, not by some unelected clergy what ever there religion
Posted by K Yates on February 8, 2008 5:07 PM
Report this comment Now hang on - before we dismiss the idea out of hand, just what would be the punishment under Sharia law for Messrs Brown and Darling in response to their handling of The Northern Rock debacle?
Posted by David Weeks on February 8, 2008 3:42 PM
Report this comment Will no-one rid us of this turbulent priest?
Posted by Farry on February 8, 2008 3:06 PM
Report this comment When you consider that most wars and conflict in the world are caused by politicians and religion, you don't need a great brain to work out what needs to be done. Ban both.
Posted by Gordon Perrygrove on February 8, 2008 3:06 PM
Report this comment To all commentators:
THIS MAN IS NOT A CHRISTIAN he is counterfeiter, like the man in Rome.
Posted by Charles Crosby on February 8, 2008 3:05 PM
Report this comment I find the reaction to Dr .William,s musings very interesting psychologically. We live in a culture that is deeply secularised. That secularisation has created a vacuum that is not being filled in any width by secular humanisism. It is unimaginable that the UK will turn back to its Christian past. Something WILL fill that vacuum....
Posted by Simon Ellis on February 8, 2008 3:05 PM
Report this comment John 14:6 - "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". If Rowan Williams actually believed that he'd stop spouting all this twaddle and concentrate on trying to convert muslims et al to Christianity
Posted by James on February 8, 2008 3:03 PM
Report this comment I do not live in the UK. I live in America, and the very thought that Sharia Law would someday be part of the United Kingdom, is appaling. Perhaps it is time that he retire?
Posted by E. Connelly on February 8, 2008 3:00 PM
Report this comment Perhaps he would care to bring back the blend of Church and State that they had around the Reformation and have himself burned at the stake for heresy. Sharia is ecclesiastical law. There is no place for that in today's society. If the Muslims that came to Britain wish to practice Sharia, then they should not have come and stayed in the "old country".
Posted by Bah Humbug on February 8, 2008 2:56 PM
Report this comment I am very impressed with the way Rowan Williams has managed to manipulate so many people into denouncing sharia law without having done so himself. A pretty clever way of fighting for Christian values in this day of political correctness.
Posted by Kim on February 8, 2008 2:50 PM
Report this comment Multiculturalism is only another leftist criminal ideology which destroys legally consistent state as state of equal rights !
Posted by Jerry Havlik on February 8, 2008 2:46 PM
Report this comment Next, I presume, we'll have a West End musical called "Seven Brides for One Brother."
Posted by stephen masty on February 8, 2008 2:40 PM
Report this comment Iv'e never been more incensed than that the idea that sharia law should be introducedd in this country. There is no room for a parallel jurisdiction, not even in civil matters. Any muslims who wish to live under sharia law should remove themselves to a country which operates it and any evidence of the operation of sharia law amongst themselves should be stamped out immediatly.
Posted by Julie Benson on February 8, 2008 2:38 PM
Report this comment I sincerely hope not. this is a Christian Country and the Archbishop of Canterbury should be totally ashamed of himself for even suggesting it. The Sharia laws are completely incompatible with our laws and Christian laws. Multiculturalism has been proven to fail and we have been failed by far far too many immigrants being allowed to invade our borders. However as they are here they must be made to abide by our laws and rules based on Christianity and if they don't like it go away.
Posted by Phyllis Jones on February 8, 2008 2:33 PM
Report this comment I see bigotry is alive and well in this country... I believe the question included the phrase "providing they do not contradict British law?"
Posted by One Law for All on February 8, 2008 11:11 AM
This comment is another attempt to play the 'race card' - accusing affronted British citizens of bigotry.....have you never heard of national pride? Are muslims not 'proud' of their faith and wear it's dress code like a badge of honour? I am proud of my country - it's democracy and freedom of speech. The freedom of speech for Rowan Williams to voice his opinion - and the 1,000 years of law which stand in the way of those words ever becoming fact. It is impossible to have 2 separate laws co-existing for separate sections of society, based on thier religious beliefs. Sharia law is for muslims in a muslim country run by religion over state. If that is how you want to live please re locate. That is not racism - that is fact. Do not play the race card in logical debate. It does not endear your 'cause' to a reasonable thinker.
Posted by Constance on February 8, 2008 2:32 PM
Report this comment Does people know what is Sharia is? With out proper knowledge of Sharia people would not benefit from it. So please study and get some knowledge of the Sharia. Sharia is not be imposed on people but to except it by their heart and mind then all mankind will live and prosper. So please study and inspire your self. When the truth is clear the falsehood perishes, falsehood bound to perish. Thank you.
Posted by Ahmed on February 8, 2008 2:31 PM
Report this comment As a species, we'll be better off when we grow up and stop believing in 'gods' and start accepting our own fate for what it is. Religion was a way of controlling the masses not so long ago. It has no future in a modern civillisation. The bible has been replaced with modern law.
This loopy man would set our laws back 500 years if he could.
Ban all religions I say!
Posted by Mike on February 8, 2008 2:31 PM
Report this comment Go back and actually LISTEN to what he's saying! He is saying that GB Law should 'recognise' that Sharia law actually exists in the same way as it 'recognises' Jewish law. Where exactly is he saying that we should all have Sharia law? HE DOESN'T!!! He says it's unavoidable that the GB law shouldn't accept - ie recognise that Sharia law exists. 'Accept' has more than one meaning!!!
Posted by Sarah on February 8, 2008 2:27 PM
Report this comment
Here's a message for Gordon Brown and the rest of the shysters in the 3 main dying parties - you may bleat loudly against what Williams has said but know that we can all see through your duplicitousness. POLYGAMOUS marriages now supported through the benefit system, Sharia banking law, HALAL meat being forced upon ALL children in many schools without parental knowledge, a blind eye truned to honour killings and underage marriage, genital mutilation of women...Need I gon on? Sharia is ALREADY HERE and you've done NOTHING to stop i!!!
This is all grist to the BNP's mill. This government and its lackeys have done more for the BNP than the BNP ever could have themselves. In a significant number of areas around the UK the BNP are coming second and blowing the Tories and Labour out of the water.
This government and its anti liberal supporters may well try to ban people in the public services from being members of the BNP but it won't stop people from sending them money and voting for them.
Posted by David Miers on February 8, 2008 2:27 PM
Report this comment I think that in order for him to change the laws based on a demographic majority,he would have to have exactly that. A demographic majority of citizens that will agree to comply to the ruling of the law, on the basis of reasonable supply and demand principles. If the supply of the people is so great, they will demand a just law that supports them. If he needs religious sanctity for immunization of a certain law, then I think those cases should be examined individually.
Posted by Elizabeth Cadle on February 8, 2008 2:26 PM
Report this comment Rowan you are the voice of the Anglican church and of Christianity not a mouth piece for the Muslim faith. To come out with such a stupid statement is ridiculous and ill concieved.How can we embrace a form of law and judgement that where the penalty imposed is deemed the will of god and the punishment dispensed is also his chosen method of punishment.
Posted by Colin Jones on February 8, 2008 2:26 PM
Report this comment I believe that when we go to countries where the people have a different kind of culture, then it is important that we respect it. Some decades ago, I remember the Queen visiting Saudi Arabia and the big question was the type of outfit she should wear (despite the heat, I remember she wore long sleeves). If Western women go to countries like Saudi Arabia, they'd be stupid to wear revealing clothes or drink alcohol in public - and we don't expect Eastern countries to change all their laws simply to accommodate Western tastes. A decision to live in another country must never be taken lightly. If the laws and culture of that country are incompatible with one's beliefs, then it's sensible to find one that fits better.
Posted by Caroline Porter on February 8, 2008 2:25 PM
Report this comment The idea of using sharia law to solve personal disagreements is no scary proposal, so long as decisions do not contravene British law. In these cases, it is simply a way to resolve differences.
The problem lies in giving such decisions legal standing, or changing laws to reflect sharia law. Individuals are free to decide amongst themselves how they wish to solve problems that relate solely to themselves (within the law). But to say that there should be two sets of laws, one for some people, and one for others, is idiotic.
Posted by Dan A. on February 8, 2008 2:25 PM
Report this comment ...and they wonder why religion is dead in the west - because those who are 'in charge' are by and large absolutely nuts.
Carry on vicar...
Posted by rhubarb on February 8, 2008 2:24 PM
Report this comment There are many types of Sharia laws. That is one of the problems from the most backward to relatively moderate.
Which one and which interpretation based on which culture?
Personally I believe that no religion should have any say in any earthly laws which should be only secular in nature. Laws are the domaine of the possible and the politic and need to allow for changes in mores that are not easily accomodated by religions, especuially those that codify their thinking in books.
Religions usually try to influence the secular to gain power and wealth as well as to establish themselves as the offial and monopoly position. Iran, Israel and England all have this problem. It has almost always been a disaster when religious groups control the secular law making process and are able to enforce their vision of the world. This is usually disasterous with respect to dissenters and minorities but mainly for women.
So no I do not believe that any consideration should be given to Sharia nor Canon nor any other religious law.
Posted by Chris on February 8, 2008 2:22 PM
Report this comment Gordon Brown, once again, speaks with forked tongue. As chancellor he introduced concessions to sharia law giving muslims relief from stamp duty. They do not have to fully comply with tax legislation to which the rest of us are subject. Why does Brown criticise the Archbishop when he is guilty himself.
Posted by Theo on February 8, 2008 2:21 PM
Report this comment I'm Kinda glad he said it- its certainly lit the fire of many citizens to realise what they have in our great country-we may yet even make a few real patriots out of them !
This IS England-we have ENGLISH LAW-.
If you immigrate to my country legally-WELCOME-SPEAK ENGLISH, ASSIMILATE, and LEARN OUR LAWS !!!
surely, if you dont like the Uk, or want to blow up people here etc-then WHY come here ?
Posted by Paul Callow on February 8, 2008 2:20 PM
Report this comment I wish I was a public figure with his clout. I could spout ridiculous ideas willy nilly and watch the general public rise to the bait.
Posted by Big Al on February 8, 2008 2:16 PM
Report this comment The fact that leftists (Labour) pick the head of the church is the issue. The country is being taken over by leftists in all key posts (BBC, Police chief etc) and this is the issue. Normal Brits need to rise up and stop this.
The Archbishop is a disgrace....he should be chosen by the church and the current idiot should be replaced.
Posted by Andrew Cole on February 8, 2008 2:16 PM
Report this comment The man is a fool, if even any minor part of Sharia law was allowed it would open the floodgates for the rest of the more radical interpretations of Sharia, i can hear the 'we musilms only want to be loved and live in peace and harmony' brigade spouting off. in reality the Muslim faith is still living in the dark ages. No further proof is need than the floggings and public hangings in Muslim states, (mostly it seems to me to be women and criminals)
Posted by martin on February 8, 2008 2:15 PM
Report this comment There are endless groups from foxhunters through paedophiles and animal rights activists to extreme Irish republicans who are 'uncomfortable with aspects of British law'.
Posted by E Skelton on February 8, 2008 2:05 PM
Report this comment Time to disestablish the c of e. is he speaking on behalf of Her Majesty (advised by Prince Philip) or Gordon Brown or is he having 'visions'.
speaking for myself, the English Common Law is time tested and all the rest are either ineffective, costly or lethal to this country. repeal the lot and allow the English to determine what happens in their country and the rest can knuckle down or sod off. This country is being destroyed by the cowardly, the treasonous and the downright dim-witted.
Posted by John on February 8, 2008 2:04 PM
Report this comment Not only is Shia law unavoidable it is totally unacceptable! The mind simply boggles at the irresponsibility of the Archbishop, just who does he thing he is impressing with such rubbish?
He has dome more damage to Anglicanism in his time in office than any ten of his predecessors, and he now wishes to extend his brand of naivety to every other aspect of our lives.
Little wonder he heads up a church that is almost down and out - just as he is!!
Posted by Dave (Totnes) on February 8, 2008 2:02 PM
Report this comment I really do not think Sharia law should have anything to do with our laws. IF this is what they want then they should go back to their own country where their own laws govern. We should stand up for our own laws. Why should we as British people have to put up with this. If they want to live in this country they should abide and be aware of our laws, NOT to try and change them. Its bad enough they have their own mosques schools, banks etc, this way they will never integrate and will always be on the outside. Like I said before if they do not want to integrate they should get out of this country. Other countries must be laughing at us, can you imagine us going somewhere and doing the same... no I think not
Posted by sharon Kelly on February 8, 2008 2:01 PM
Report this comment What are the troops doing in these countries??? These boys are dying to stop this type of outragious laws and if anyone comes to live in this country they MUST follow our laws and not make up the law as they go along or follow the laws in their country. If they cannot comply with our laws then they should go home where they can do what they like, but DO NOT allow this ludicrous behaviour to be folloedw in THIS - OUR - Country - ENGLAND!!!
Posted by Lenmal on February 8, 2008 2:01 PM
Report this comment If the Archbishop does not believe what he should believe ,that Christ is the way, the truth and the light then he must resign his office .If he does believe this it is astonishing that he chooses to defend a system of law which must be abhorrent to all Christians
Posted by jackie godfrey on February 8, 2008 2:00 PM
Report this comment Way to go, Archbish. A christian man has an adulterous relationship with a muslim woman. He gets no criticism. She gets flogged (I live in the Middle East - trust me, adultery = flogging offence). Alternatively, 2 gays - one christian, one muslim - one is normal in our society, they other is 'an abomination'. Is this really what the Archbish wants? Do behave!
Posted by Gilbo Green on February 8, 2008 1:59 PM
Report this comment Why do we not speed up the intergration process? Merge all the Muslim councils with the Muslim council of Great Britain then install it as the government of Great Britain.
This will prevent the death of a thousand cuts and we can all adjust to our new country or emigrate.
Posted by Jim Peyton on February 8, 2008 1:57 PM
Report this comment This idiot priest should be removed from his position forthwith. Had he said that we should seek to accommodate the customs of other cultures, always provided this is absolutely subject to the laws of this country and the unforced free choice of the individuals involved, that might not be unreasonable. To suggest that two contradictory systems of law should exist in the same country is ridiculous.
Posted by Peter on February 8, 2008 1:56 PM
Report this comment "More and more I look at what is happening in Britain today being taken over by loads of johnny foreigners and thank the lord that I got out when I did."
(Ex)Pat Smith, Tehran
Only joking...
On a serious note I looked at Damian Thompson's blog - he doesn't appear to have heard the interview! His comments seem to be based on an unnamed article on BBC news website. Is this standard Telegraph reporting? How very disappointing yet somehow quite unsurprising.
In fact I wonder how many people who have commented on here have actually listened to the interview...
Posted by Rod Munch on February 8, 2008 1:55 PM
Report this comment PM's spokesman is quotedthus:"If there are specific instances like stamp duty, where changes can be made in a way that's consistent with British law and British values, in a way to accommodate the values of fundamental Muslims, that is something the Government would look at."
Can somebody please explain the above? Why should the Government "look at" anything simply to "accomodate the values" of a specific group's religious views? What happens when the Sikhs, (remember the crash helmet/turban and London Bus uniform hat controversies?), Buddhists, Mormons, Jews, Scientologists and myriads of other sects ask for "accomodations"?
What a farce!!
Posted by David on February 8, 2008 1:54 PM
Report this comment Most people don't seem to have grasped the pervasive nature of Islam: it's more than a religion, it's a social and legal way of life, imperialistic in nature. Look back as far as you like in British history, but I don't think you'll find anything comparably totalitarian.
In a democracy, the majority make the rules and everyone is bound by them. Partial adoption of Sharia is completely at odds with this - it's legitimisation of a state within a state. It's balkanisation, and we know where that leads.
Do we want to go back to the dark ages? Surrender our hard-won freedoms? We can't all emigrate somewhere. Remember there are people depending on us to defend THEIR freedom, people who fought for ours. And won.
Posted by Mike Page on February 8, 2008 1:54 PM
Report this comment Dr Rowan Williams is a coward in the face of the enemy. As an extreme Anglo-Catholic who has almost gone over to Rome, he loves symbolism for the sake of it. Every poster here should send him a white feather.
Posted by White Feather on February 8, 2008 1:53 PM
Report this comment Absolutely no to shariah law in Britain. If they want shariah law go to the middle east. Social cohesion? Rubbish - ASSIMILATION. What is the British government doing to keep us British? Nothing at all - keep the minorities happy, us majorities count for nothing at all!
Posted by chris on February 8, 2008 1:50 PM
Report this comment The essential problem is that there are too many like Williams appeasing minority Muslim pressure groups. Every accomodating gesture is interpreted by militants as a sign of weakness by a morally bankrupt culture. These words and gestures only encourages more demands.
Similarily, new Labour talks tough on Muslim terrorism (something it has helped stoke and now renamed in Orwellian fashion "anti-islamic activity"), while dragging its feet arresting and deporting the rabble rousers for fear of upsetting the "community" (e.g. losing votes).
The only thing that really encourages me is the healthy contempt most respondents seem to hold for the Bishop and organised religion in general. The British Isles (and indeed Europe) have been through the religious wringer in the past few hundred years and now can do without their superstitious mumbo jumbo.
Posted by IanM on February 8, 2008 1:47 PM
Report this comment This is the most Holy season of christian faith. As the leader of the church bishop's focus,thoughts and speaches should have been on HIS faith accoding to the Law of the Holy Bible.
He should have been teaching on the Law of Moses and the Lord's Prayer.
Why on earth he decided to pick this subjust at the most inappropriate time. WHY?
Posted by M Thomas on February 8, 2008 1:45 PM
Report this comment Another misguided Christian.The Romans are to blame,should have fed more to the lions.There are a great many more religions in this country besides Islam,they all comply with the law of the land,so that is it,no reason for argument.
Posted by D .P ritchard on February 8, 2008 1:45 PM
Report this comment Mike. You are correct that we have laws imposed from brussels and some adopted from the American/French/German experience. You may disagree with them, but that is frankly not the point. Those Laws apply to everyone equally. What the Archbishop wants is different laws for me because I am aethiest to my neighbour who is muslim. That is not acceptable. British Law is not perfect - but at least in theory it is not perfect for everyone. I think equality before the law is an ideal we should aspire to and not degrade.
Posted by John, LDN on February 8, 2008 1:34 PM
Report this comment Isn't Rowan Williams simply trying to state a fact? Only recently, we heard that multiple marriages are allowed, and recognised, for benefit purposes, provided the ceremony takes place abroad. Is this not beginning to allow Sharia law here?
Posted by P. Harvey on February 8, 2008 1:28 PM
Report this comment Not being British and not living in the UK, I would nevertheless like to say, as a European citizen, that such statement, coming form a public figure like Dr. Williams is both irresponsible and very dangerous. How far are we all prepared to go in the name of our good old Democracy before we realise that accepting or condescending with the “invasion” of other cultures (some of them showing inhuman, primitive and violent behavioural characteristics based mostly on religious fundamentalism) will ultimately make us feel strangers in our own homes/countries. We are opening our doors to the kind of people that scorn and abuse our spirit of democracy and respect towards others only to see them taking advantage of what they call our weaknesses and impose their own rules on all of us. It is time for a serious debate about these issues before it’s too late.
Posted by Paulo Bandeira on February 8, 2008 1:25 PM
Report this comment Welsh windbag.
Posted by Phil on February 8, 2008 1:24 PM
Report this comment This utter nonsense about Sharia law should be seen as a wake up call for all rational people. It’s high time that religion was taken out of politics for good before religious conflict takes us out.
Rather than introducing Sharia law into the UK how about booting out the 26 Bishops who vote in the House of Lords on our behalf? How about disengaging the church and state? And isn’t it about time to stop taxpayers money being used to bolster religious discrimination in faith schools?
If you are concerned about these issues then do something about it - write to your MP or better still join the National Secular Society.
Posted by Paul Tavener on February 8, 2008 1:23 PM
Report this comment Sharia law is inevitable only if we let it get a foot hold it should be nipped in the bud now.
Posted by Dave Pittam on February 8, 2008 1:23 PM
Report this comment From what I understand the archbishop said, Sharia is not LAW as the English language might describe the word but a set of principles up for interpretation and enactment in whatever context. Is it inconceivable that some of these underlying concepts might complement rather than contradict 'British' values in Britain? Is it also beyond the pale, that people of all or no religion could reach some form of agreement as to what aspects of Sharia could work? Perhaps, the archbishop wasn't advocating a system which promotes cruelty and abuse of women. Did I miss something? Maybe I'm a pipe dreamer but I think the insults hurled at a man, who might possibly have more experience and a better understanding of the issue than I do, are embarrassing.
Posted by c traynor on February 8, 2008 1:22 PM
Report this comment What a stupid and inflammatory thing to say. No, Sharia law, or any parts thereof should never be adopted in Britain. Why? Because this is Britain. If people are unhappy with that, they know what to do.
Posted by Phil Dyson on February 8, 2008 1:20 PM
Report this comment All practicing anglicans should boycot sunday sirvice and collections this Sunday or as long as this rev williams is in charge.Can anybody find him something usfull to do like living and working with christians in Iraq ?
Posted by rapley on February 8, 2008 1:19 PM
Report this comment No, it is NOT inevitable, but those of us who don't want it must be prepared to stand up and be counted. There should be one law for ALL and no one should be above the law. That's Common Law, I'm talking about, neither the Code Napoleon, nor Sharia.
Posted by A Member of the C of E on February 8, 2008 1:18 PM
Report this comment Th eman is an absolute fool and needs to be removed from any position of influence.
You can see how it would go. Firstly it would only apply to Muslims. Then British courts would have to defer to sharia courts for crimes committed by muslims. Next any crime involving a muslim would be dealt with by sharia regardless of whether or not all protagonists are muslim or not.
Perhaps the arch Bishop should look to history. Does the phrase "Let him have Czechoslavakia and that should satisfy him" ring any bells? If not then it was just before another fool proclaimed "peace in our time".
No need to mention honour killings and forced marriage. That has been amply covered. One can only assume that Williams condones such activities by his remarks.
Posted by Steve Ipswich on February 8, 2008 1:14 PM
Report this comment This seems to me to be a particularly stupid thing to say from a supposedly learned fellow.
Surely what Williams should be saying is that there are some good things about Islam - like for example going to church regularly. As indeed should Trevor Phillips be saying.
But it is at the behest of the Anglo Saxon nation, whose country it is, not some weird intellectual, whether we tolerate a separate set of laws.
Posted by Andy G on February 8, 2008 1:13 PM
Report this comment Appalling journalism jumping on tabloid bandwagons. Quoting two words from a speech without context.
We have European law imposed by unelected administrators in Brussels. So why shouldn't British muslims resident and registered to vote ask us to consider changes to our law that arise from their system. Is our infallible, perfect, always and fully respected by our citizens? We have laws brought over from American experience, and from French, so why not Muslim?
Posted by mike on February 8, 2008 1:12 PM
Report this comment If Williams should trimmed his eyebrows and he may be able to see what is happening in this world.
Posted by Steve Reddy on February 8, 2008 1:11 PM
Report this comment
In my view everyone should be equal under the law and that's that. If people want a priest, a rabbi or mullah as a third party arbitrator then fine, that's their choice - but it should NEVER be legally binding.
The real issue is that the archbishop is advocating a privileged position for religion in our society - which in my view is not compatible with the values modern liberal democracy. Thankfully in Europe we had the Enlightenment and no longer are ruled by the laws of god, but that of reason (well in theory!)
Posted by John, LDN on February 8, 2008 1:10 PM
Report this comment English Law, whatever defects it may share with other systems of law, has grown organically over the centuries. There's now taking place in it, though at a more rapid pace, changes apparently aimed to constitute ultimately a unified EC Law. What makes this possible without more serious clashes than we hear of is a certain compatibility in the cultural sources drawn upon. What the Archbishop of Canterbury is talking about sounds more like a desire to substitute fairly soon chunks of sharia law for what already exists or is being developed in order to accede to the political demands of one community over the nation. This wouldn't necessarily mean a better administration of justice even for that community. Needless to say what an encroachment it would be on democracy, which some of its advocates have already caused to happen directly or indirectly in this country. The good Archbishop might find his own Christianity receding a bit faster than appears to be the case now.
Posted by S.Beesoon on February 8, 2008 1:08 PM
Report this comment It`s time he gave up his day job
Posted by michael layzell on February 8, 2008 1:01 PM
Report this comment We are governed by politicall correct invertebrates, I think given the predicted demographics it is inevitable.
Posted by Gary Miller on February 8, 2008 12:59 PM
Report this comment I agree with Mike Connell: I to look forward to the day, when I can open my newspaper and spend an evening watching television without either or both making a reference to Islam. I am sick of it. This is a (supposed to be) a Christian country and Islam is one minor faith amongst many.
Posted by Chris H on February 8, 2008 12:59 PM
Report this comment Enough is enough!
Who is going to start a petition to remove this infidel from office?
I'll be the first to sign!
Posted by BorisP on February 8, 2008 12:55 PM
Report this comment Has the Archbishop just put a match to the tinderbox of modern British society?
Posted by Roger on February 8, 2008 12:54 PM
Report this comment What a fabulous wind-up. Was he set up to vent the bile duct of the enraged middle classes?
However, immigratig to a country and replicating in its entirety the culture and law of the country you left is called colonialism. It was not acceptable when we practiced it.
Posted by Peter Franks on February 8, 2008 12:52 PM
Report this comment Now I may be in a minority but I think that Rowan Williams is a brave, thoughtful and honest Christian, worthy of the word.
He would not have spoken out in public without having given the matter great thought and prayer.
He is a learned and tolerant man, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he has read the Koran thoroughly and prayerfully and therefore has some knowledge on which to base his comments.
Orthodox Jews can seek legal guidance from their own 'court', Catholics can do similar either from this country or the Vatican about issues such as marriage annulment, so why can the Muslims not benefit from similar legal institutions to help them resolve legal issues in a fashion within their beliefs and the laws laid down in the Koran.
As usual we always hear the worst or most sensational aspects of Sharia law; but surely there must be comfort to those members of the faithful who seek guidance on difficult matters but wish to remain inside the rules of the faith they follow (and that doesn't just apply to Muslims!).
And to add insult to injury, the secular laws and legal system in place for those who follow no organised or declared religion (ie most of those living in the UK) don't seem particularly effective in terms of conviction rates and realistic sentencing.
Posted by Mandy Pease on February 8, 2008 12:49 PM
Report this comment What is Dr Williams thinking about? In Britain, NZ and Australia we have tried and tested laws created by our own chosen governments. These are intended to reflect the conditions for our lives in these countries. The same applies to Muslim countries although the womenfolk appear to have no say in their conditions. If the Muslims wish to live by their Sharia Law in THEIR countries then that is fine. One country I love is Malaysia which seems to have an acceptance of other religions whilst retaining its own convictions as a MUSLIM country. Great Britain should take the same attitude regarding religious freedom but the state should maintain its right to dispense law within the boundaries its people have set. Surely this is hard enough without complicating the fairness and equality within the law for Britains as a whole and not Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches as individual states within the state. Let them have their faiths but for harmony and quality of life, there can be only one law in any nation. I just hope Australia does not follow you down this path to the Dark Ages.
Posted by John Ward on February 8, 2008 12:49 PM
Report this comment I'm not happy about the existence in England of ANY 'alternative' legal systems, including the codes of orthodox Jews, Catholics or any other group, regardless of what areas of national or personal life they cover. Perhaps we should be grateful to the archbishop for inadvertantly drawing attention to this issue. As has been said dozens of times already--one people, one law, no exceptions.
Posted by oohkuchi on February 8, 2008 12:48 PM
Report this comment Who does he think he is? I'm in my late 70's and am more sane than him. Why does he think he knows it all? Best if he kept his mouth firmly shut and 'reform' his opinion
Posted by Nigel on February 8, 2008 12:43 PM
Report this comment My wife and I underwent some 4 years of anxiety and great duress because of somebody who believed that only his religon's law applied to him and not UK civil law.
No way do we add another law to ours. You want Sharia, go to a country where it is main stream law. same if you want German, French, Libiyan or anyone elses. You like it - you move there.
Posted by M Hunt on February 8, 2008 12:42 PM
Report this comment teachers, religious leaders – even friends, or so called friends – take over where parents leave off. They demand that we feel only the feelings they want and expect from us. They demand all the time that we perform feelings for them. We're like actors – turned loose in this world to wander in search of a phantom…endlessly searching for a half-forgotten shadow of our lost reality. When others demand that we become the people they want us to be, they force us to destroy the person we really are. It's a subtle kind of murder….the most loving parents and relatives commit this murder with smiles on their faces.
Posted by james on February 8, 2008 12:40 PM
Report this comment
more like a 60s/70's sociology professor than
archbishop of canterbury
Posted by pip jones on February 8, 2008 12:39 PM
Report this comment Please stop giving space to fanatical religious lunatics of any faith! PLEASE
Posted by Jim Golightly on February 8, 2008 12:36 PM
Report this comment Take Sharia to your home country of Wales perhaps, Dr Williams. England does NOT want it - or you.
Posted by Ditch this Turbulent Priest! on February 8, 2008 12:33 PM
Report this comment I so agree with Mike Connell (See above)! I am at the stage that whenever I hear the word 'Islam', 'Muslim' and even - as at present on Radio 4 - 'Pakistan' I literally switch off the radio for a few minutes and continue with my own thoughts until it is all past.
Posted by Joseph on February 8, 2008 12:22 PM
Report this comment I think The Anglican Church Council should think about it twice if they still need this Minister as their leader. Am not a christian neighter a muslim but if feel. Rowan is a disgrace.
Posted by Rexoty on February 8, 2008 12:14 PM
Report this comment Wake up Britain!! The brainwashing about the virtues of Sharia Law has reached your leading intellectuals!! Has Dr. Williams himself experienced life under Sharia Law like many of us non-muslims have? Would someone bring to his attention the fact that “Taqiyya” - which effectively is “lying” for the sake of enforcing and upholding Sharia Law - is regarded a sacred duty?
Posted by Rita on February 8, 2008 12:03 PM
Report this comment Yes, why don't we all adopt the Catherine Tate cum-Dr. Williams approach, raise our tortured eyes to heaven, looking for an asnwer, and go: "Are You bothered, Lord?"
...
We hear a new one EVERY WEEK!!
If individuals belonging in any way to the Muslim society don't like it here, or for any reason at all feel they are being wronged by the nation or even feel like the (And I quote)"nation is becoming a ferment of moral depravity" ... why don't they leave???
things in their own countries have to be done THEIR way, why does Britain even have to CONSIDER doing anything that doesn't constitute of BRITAIN'S WAY???
In other words Williams ... pack up your stuff, and go home.
Posted by Angry young woman on February 8, 2008 11:57 AM
Report this comment This guy needs his head examined. It's potty, illogical, wooly-headed nonsense. If people want Sharia law they should live in those countries which practice it. talk about propelling us 700 years into the past.
Posted by C Dare on February 8, 2008 11:56 AM
Report this comment
The Archbishop’s real intention and agenda is, surely, one law for those of religious faith and another for the rest of us. This is, of course, immoral and impractical but that isn’t going to stop him from making gentle, nuanced speeches arguing for the politics of this. He made a similarly stunning statement, just last week, advocating that the blasphemy laws are abolished in favour of something even more severe and draconian. Even then there were useful idiots rallying to support him.
I hope that they can now all see where this is ultimately heading and recognise that there now has to be an absolute separation of religion and state. We can only co-exist in secular state no matter how uncomfortable that may be for some. Doctors who refuse to give abortions or pharmacists who refuse to administer contraception out of “personal conscience” should be sacked. Hotel owners who refuse to accommodate gay people should be closed down and so should Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to obey the law. All religious involvement in family courts also has to end.
Only then will we have something approaching a sane, rational society that isn’t held to ransom by faith-based pressure groups, muddle-headed medievalists and bigoted believers in Bronze or dark-age fairy tales.
Posted by Jason Mead on February 8, 2008 11:54 AM
Report this comment I look forward to the day, just one day only, when I can open my newspaper and spend an evening watching television without either or both making a reference to Islam.
Is this wishful thinking?
Posted by Mike Connell on February 8, 2008 11:52 AM
Report this comment Every Sunday I celebrate mass at a Catholic Church. It is bursting to the brim. There is an Anglican Church immediately next to us. It is empty.
Posted by Thomas Healy on February 8, 2008 11:51 AM
Report this comment One people one law.
Are the bishop's comments a reflection of the bankrupcy of both himself and the anglican church?
Posted by jerry on February 8, 2008 11:48 AM
Report this comment God help us. No, God help the Archbishop.
BTW what is the Sharia punishment for betraying your faith?
Posted by Julia on February 8, 2008 11:47 AM
Report this comment Sharia Law IS inevitable unless we all wake up to the danger on our doorstep. Lobby your MP, write blogs... do ANYTHING to prevent this.
Our politicians are to blame for all of this... and they have no one to blame but themselves if the BNP make political inroads at the next election.
I fear that civil unrest is not too far off!
Posted by jakman on February 8, 2008 11:47 AM
Report this comment Unfortunately the Church of England didn't see this one coming.He is a classic examle of someone being educated beyond their intelligence & should be quickly dismiissed before he does any more damage to the Church.
Posted by Mike Delaney on February 8, 2008 11:46 AM
Report this comment Rowan Williams' hubristic pronouncements will be the death of us....
Posted by William Varley on February 8, 2008 11:46 AM
Report this comment the man is clearly deluded. look at those eyebrows.
Posted by resigned of bishops stortford on February 8, 2008 11:44 AM
Report this comment I am shocked and appalled by this statement, what a defeatist attitude to have, he and his left wing liberal friends are happy to surrender Britain and its values to a set a beliefs that have no place in modern society. I believe it is probably becoming too late to stop the onset of this intolerant religion but a line in the sand should be drawn somewhere.
Posted by Richard on February 8, 2008 11:39 AM
Report this comment Sharia Law in Britain is not an option.
When person chooses to live in another country that person must abode by the laws, customs and traditions of that country.
Does anyone realistically expect Saudi Arabia or Iran to allow foreigners to live following the principles of law that prevails in their home country. I think not.
Posted by Andrew Abel on February 8, 2008 11:39 AM
Report this comment Of course Sharia Law is inevitable in the UK and there's not a thing anyone will do about it. It's a cold war. The reason why it's inevitable? Demographics: they breed more and the takeover like a desert takes over the veldt. We're all mouth and no trousers. Can last Englishman please turn out the light...
Posted by Wulfstan on February 8, 2008 11:35 AM
Report this comment Consider a moment having a Catholic monarch or PM, thats not going
to happen we're too conservative! neither will Sharia.
Canada toyed with the idea of Sharia law along with the special
measures already in place for the Jewish community and decided not
to bother (and scrapped the Jewish measures already in place),
sensibly relying on one legal system with equality for all.
In essence Sharia is archaic and prescriptive, administered by
"scholars" and intended to control not support. Give Islam 50 years
and we'll be saying "Is...what" it will be as irrelevant as Christianity is
today.
Posted by JTR on February 8, 2008 11:34 AM
Report this comment That such an idiot who is so out of touch with reality can hold such a senior position is a sad reflection on the Church of England and will have a major adverse effect on peoples' perception of its relevance.
Posted by R.G. BAYLIS on February 8, 2008 11:33 AM
Report this comment No wonder the churches of this country are empty! I can't believe what I'm hearing from the supposed head of the church. He is stark, raving mad.
Posted by mabel on February 8, 2008 11:30 AM
Report this comment This man is a disgrace to our country and should be removed from post immediately. Perhaps he should sample life in a country practising sharia law
Posted by Susan Trim on February 8, 2008 11:29 AM
Report this comment Dr Williams needs to get his hair and beard trimmed, look a bit "street wise" and to wake up quickly! Being born and living in England and I do not want any parallel set of imported laws running here.
We cannot police the laws we have now, so why add an overlay of medieval origin.
Dr Williams needs to step down, he does not represent most English peoples thoughts.
Posted by Richard B on February 8, 2008 11:24 AM
Report this comment The real issue is: "when are we going to fight back?"
Posted by stafford on February 8, 2008 11:22 AM
Report this comment Absolute nonsense it would undermine the social fabric and the basics of being a 'British subject' - this also applies to every civilised country in the world......! The clergy should have more sense than to inflame the attempts by paranoid self opinionated minorities to change the face of this once civilised country....
Posted by beany on February 8, 2008 11:21 AM
Report this comment Why are we saddled with this fool? Surely Sentamu or Nazir-Ali would be a better Archbishop of Canterbury. They would stand up for Christan values rather that of appeasement.
We are now reaching a point of discrimen ( a focal point where there is not turning point). We must stand up for Christian values. We must reclaim our heritage and our history.
If they want sharia law - let them live in Saudi.
Posted by Angry young man on February 8, 2008 11:21 AM
Report this comment I am really surprised how Rowan William, a preacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ will make a definite comment that supports a religious practice which does not accept Jesus as the Son of God the main controversial truth in the Bible negated by the other religious groups. I think Rowan must re-examine his standing with God well.
Posted by N.K-Baffour on February 8, 2008 11:19 AM
Report this comment I think what the Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday was fantastic.
He's done more for the Catholic Church post-reformation than any C of E leader could have dreamed of..
During his reign he has seen the number of those attending Catholic mass overtake C of E ceremonies since Henry VIII , thanks to women priests and now this ...
Let's hope he's in office for another 20 years.
Posted by bozcannon on February 8, 2008 11:18 AM
Report this comment I've had enough of fearful religious twaddle from any and all faiths to last a lifetime. However it's good for Dr Williams for exposing the difficult topic in this way.
Posted by seen a bit o life on February 8, 2008 11:18 AM
Report this comment Listening to Dr Williams speaking yesterday was
a refreshing experience. It was a thoughtful and
intelligent discussion of a difficult topic. He is to
be congratulated on his courage. It contrasts
with the shameful reporting of it by our
newspapers who appear to be incapable of
considering difficult issues without using
inflammatory headlines and fueling peoples
fears.
It is interesting that most of the comments you
have printed are purely abusive. If it happened
the adoption of any aspects of Sharia law into
arbitration would be only for those who wished
to use it; It would be subject to British and in
particular human rights law.
Posted by K.D.Elworthy on February 8, 2008 11:18 AM
Report this comment yes it is inevitable - the UK is run by cowards - I cant wait to see how this all pans out.
Posted by Daniel K888 on February 8, 2008 11:16 AM
Report this comment I would dispute your comment that there are as many 70 million anglicans in the world. Does this figure include every citizen of the UK and Northern Ireland?
Posted by Will Harrison on February 8, 2008 11:16 AM
Report this comment Please cast your minds back to the Crash Helmet debacle, the Law of the Land was then seriously compromised when Sikhs were not compelled to wear crash helmets, an exception being made on religious grounds. I seem to remember that there was a prison sentence for an unfortunate man who stood up to be counted.
Posted by John Collins on February 8, 2008 11:14 AM
Report this comment The muslims only want just a "tiny tiny" part of sharia incorporated into UK law.
FOR NOW.......
Removing ALL overtly religious and non indigenous cultural based identifiers, from burkas to turbans, is long overdue. This is the western fringe of Europe, not the Indian sub continent nor North Africa. Religious and cultural identity should be a private matter, not a public one.
Posted by Jim, in the West Country on February 8, 2008 11:13 AM
Report this comment As an American living in Egypt I can not understand how any modern free thinking individual could even imagine living under Sharia law. Women in the Middle East are, for the most part, second class citizens unless they have superior educations and money of their own. Egypt has finally criminalized female genital mutilation. Until Islam enters the 21st century and gives women and men equality in all areas then there should be a definate ban on mixing church and state matters even as it applies to Muslims living in Westernized thinking countries.
Posted by Carole T on February 8, 2008 11:12 AM
Report this comment The practice of separate laws for groups is definitely very divisive.
In India there is the problem of hindu law, Muslim law & Christian law gverning these communities in civil matters.
It definitely causes tension, so Sharia must not be introduced here.
Posted by S Kumar on February 8, 2008 11:12 AM
Report this comment
Are there any Guardianistas or other metropolitan liberals out there? We want to hear from you.
Do you support the introduction of Sharia law as being multi-culturally inclusive, politically correct and generally "right on", or do you oppose it for repressing women, your beloved human rights and the British ethnic majority?
What delicious irony.
Posted by O Zangado on February 8, 2008 11:12 AM
Report this comment I see bigotry is alive and well in this country... I believe the question included the phrase "providing they do not contradict British law?"
I'm of the muslim faith, and the LAST thing I want to see in this country is so-called Sharia law... I don't know a single muslim who does!
But, for the vast majority of the posters here, all those pesky muslims are backwards and they're all the same, so who cares what I say, eh?
As a muslim, I'm happy to say that if someone doesn't agree with British law and tradition, they can move somewhere else. I'd be quite happy if all the bigots could pack up and leave too, whatever your creed. Thanks, see ya, bye!
Posted by One Law for All on February 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Report this comment Fruitcake in a Frock, Churchill must be spinning in his grave, men and women of the commonwealth didnt sacrifice their lives for some medieval loons to steal this sceptre isle.
Posted by henryV on February 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Report this comment Logic dictates that the law of any democratic land should be followed by ALL its citizens, regardless of race, creed or colour. Where else in the whole world would anyone suggest otherwise, except here of course!
Posted by Joan Henry on February 8, 2008 11:11 AM
Report this comment At last we have found the biggest fool in
Christendom, Rowan Williams
Posted by Richard K on February 8, 2008 11:09 AM
Report this comment This man is a blithering idiot; as I have suspected for some time. He should be defrocked, dethroned and removed immediately. Why do we have to suffer such fools?
Posted by Nicholas Batten on February 8, 2008 11:08 AM
Report this comment Would the last Englishman to leave please turn off the lights.
Posted by Gary on February 8, 2008 11:07 AM
Report this comment What is wrong with our so-called leaders? Do they forget the values that put Great in Great Britan! A policy of preaching true Christian Values like honesty, hard work and kindness to fellow man would serve us much better than to preach extremist views, no matter whose they are. The basic values of Islam and Sheria law are great, but then so are the principles of Communism.
Posted by Eddy Lawyer on February 8, 2008 11:01 AM
Report this comment The man is a fool - I found this amazingly feeble minded. I don't care about parallel religious based legal systems. I don’t care about religion and I don’t care for any religious intrusion into my life. Religion is for the feeble minded.
Posted by iain on February 8, 2008 11:00 AM
Report this comment Who really is the enemy within?
Posted by Thomas Hobbs on February 8, 2008 10:59 AM
Report this comment He probably was ordained with the Koran whilst we thought he was holding a bible and this gives me the impression that he's a muslim in Christian garb. I think we need to repair his pulpit. This could be a circumlocutory way to request a new one.
Posted by Blessing on February 8, 2008 10:59 AM
Report this comment Look at Britain and the civilised west, possibly any country that doesnt have islamic views and then look at every single muslim country on this planet...then look at the differences in the way we live domestically, and the quality of life as a peopl...
REGRESSION is not something Britain should aspire to...the reason these countries are lost in the dark ages is because they rejected the civilised way of life.
No way is Britain going to destroy itself by adopting such uncivilised barbarisn ways of living just as an apology to the muslims living in this country who have made us feel as if we have wronged them...
Bore off
Posted by Tom on February 8, 2008 10:58 AM
Report this comment Wot makes me mad is that he just voiced what in actual fact, every part of the UK is already doing...open door immigration...Halal meat from Asda..one side reporting on rascist crimes...Christmas..3 little pigs, more money for harem wives etc..I mean EVERY WEEK we see a new story about political correctness and the disintegration of the UK ...yet he speaks out, and every says NO WAY..when in fact they themselves, have done more to destroy the UK and turn it into a Muslim nation than he ever will with mere words...wake up people and look around, and dont believe the hype from a government and media who are suddenly anti-muslim just cause every else is, just to get votes....this country cant see the wood for the trees....its sad but as he said "unavoidable"..its already too late.
Posted by GREG on February 8, 2008 10:46 AM
Report this comment Britain is now at the point of no
return, in some areas Sharia law is
the law, because the police know that
offending Muslim values would be the biggest crime of all; they will do anything to avoid street riots
Posted by J Mckay on February 8, 2008 10:44 AM
Report this comment hold on hold on....are there any islamic laws that might be helpful and agreeable to us as a society (because think i'm right in thinking that the folks who comment here are the same folks who normally comment on societal problems/ decline)? should someone look into this first before we all have a good rant.
Posted by simon marsh on February 8, 2008 10:30 AM
Report this comment It's not the public's reaction to Dr Williams' thoughts that count. It's the duplicitous reaction by our "government" that matters. For all those who missed James from Canterbury's comment, here it is again...
"Interesting that Brown is against this saying that British values must be the basis for British law, if this is the case why is his government paying benefits to muslims committing bigamy?"
Posted by james in Canterbury on February 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Report this comment
Posted by P Williams on February 8, 2008 10:24 AM
Report this comment At least David Jenkins was an atheist, the current archbish is just a religion groupie. No wonder his church is a declining sect
Posted by Mary Cane on February 8, 2008 10:12 AM
Report this comment If this isn't a godsend to the BNP, I don't know what is.
Posted by Rob Crosbie on February 8, 2008 10:06 AM
Report this comment This man is an atrocious fool, and should be outcast from this country, if he wants to live under sharia law let him, parhaps he should be kicked out of the country as well as excommunicated.
Posted by Richard Phillips on February 8, 2008 10:02 AM
Report this comment Has anyone read the amazing speech by John Howard, prime minister of Australia, on immigration, religion,laws, patriotism and other issues! Brill! We need someone like that!
Posted by Cassie on February 8, 2008 10:02 AM
Report this comment Blessed are the meek for they shall be trampled into the dust
Posted by earoles on February 8, 2008 10:00 AM
Report this comment There's an old (and as it happens) Jewish saying
that runs more or less as follows: 'Everyone has
stupid thoughts from time to time, but only the
fool expresses them'. Isn't it time his church, to
which part of me at least nominally belongs,
asked him to do the honourable thing and step
down? He's not helping anybody or anything, but
just muddying the waters, waters that are
outside his remit, and beyond his depth.
Posted by Marc Heine on February 8, 2008 9:48 AM
Report this comment Anyone want to start a new party ?: 'Taking back Britain' because by the sound of it we'll soon need it ! I have rarely heard such a spineless intelectually lost Archbishop in all Chrisondom.
Posted by joey on February 8, 2008 9:32 AM
Report this comment How wonderful that the Archbishop has united almost the whole of public opinion with one speech!
Now all he needs to do is to get the subject matter right.
Posted by Richard Cooper on February 8, 2008 9:15 AM
Report this comment Please,forgive my poor schoolar English,but i could not pas the dangerous stupid and eventualy criminal thoughts of a lunatic who can be the proof of god's existence:even a crazy mad man can become head of a religion
Posted by Jean-Luc Lourdel on February 8, 2008 9:08 AM
Report this comment Williams brings closer the day when all British women will be forced to wear the black sack of shame.
Posted by tony wolff on February 8, 2008 8:55 AM
Report this comment Perhaps Dr Williams would prefer to live in a Muslim country? I am sure they would welcome him and give him every encouragement to add his laws to theirs...
Posted by jonathan montmorency on February 8, 2008 8:33 AM
Report this comment This statement has been made by a man out of
touch with reality. The reality is that we have a
system of law that has taken over a 1000 years to
evolve and has served this nation well. To have a
complementary system of law is just plain wrong
and would lead to all kinds of problems.
Posted by A Cain on February 8, 2008 8:28 AM
Report this comment When in Rome, do as the Romans do.....Could the reverend gentleman cite any muslim country which would countenance the reverse of his suggestion? Send him to the Tower!
Posted by R.A.Kenward on February 8, 2008 8:23 AM
Report this comment Why does it matter what the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks?
If you don't believe in god, he's irrelevant, if you do believe in god I imagine you'd pick a better outfit than this chaps collective, regardless of the god you believe in.
Posted by Alex Keenleyside on February 8, 2008 8:15 AM
Report this comment No wonder the Anglican faith is held in contempt by those who have thought it might be their conviction. A MEDDLESOME PRELATE - and we know in history what happened to some of them !
Posted by Martin Main on February 8, 2008 8:15 AM
Report this comment The Archbishop is leading the way to our terminal decline. No longer one law for all. This is the slippery slope to an utterly fragmented society. A total disaster for social cohesion. At some point the majority will rise up - the risk of violence gets ever closer.
Posted by Goodbye Blighty on February 8, 2008 8:13 AM
Report this comment There are many people who do not choose to follow a religion at all, why can there not be a secular system, with religion having no major partplay in how the country is governed. In this way individuals can choose their religion outside of state rule but all following the same rules based on a common moral code. As many have said if people do not like the way a country is governed then it is time to leave. I certainly did and I now live in a secular country where religion is neither forced on me or my children. religion may give many people guidance and comfort but on the flip side it also causes most of the worlds major problems. Perhaps its importance on every day life should be reduced and it be a personal choice in private life.
Posted by Sarah on February 8, 2008 8:08 AM
Report this comment Of course, if everyone was playing by the same rules, abiding by them and working to a common purpose this sort of hair brained position would be plausible. We are not in that perfect World and so it will not work and should not be contemplated.
Simply put, British laws for everyone living in Britain, based on traditional British values and legal custom - i.e. christian. If you want sharia law, go to another country which practices it. If you don't want to do that then stop complaining and get on with being an integrated member of the British community.
Posted by Sidney Harbour-Bridge on February 8, 2008 8:08 AM
Report this comment Things certainly have gone 180 degrees since G. K. Chesterton said, about 100 years ago, "It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men - so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two agnostics. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship." ("The New Hypocrite" What's Wrong with the World).
Rowan William isn't to blame for what has happened in Britain since Chesterton's time; neither the rise in agnosticism since then is his fault, nor the diminution of "manly friendships," the condemnation of "quarrelsome" as something utterly bad and to be avoided *at any cost*, or the revolutionary breaking of boundaries and barriers that the UK was in the forefront of back in the 1960s.
"England swings like a pendulum do," and you can't blame the Archbishop of Canterbury for pointing out where the pendulum currently is headed. "Mohammed" is forecast to be the most popular British name next year, though maybe with luck you can put that off for a few more years. It will take more than luck to change your national welfare system,though, as that is going to require taxes to keep going: when the majority of Britons now working are retired and/or disabled, collecting benefits that are being funded through taxes on younger Britons, many of whom are named Mohammed, who then will care to speak up for English Common Law over "moderate" (such things are always presented as "moderate" at first) sharia?
I am Buddhist, yet even as an outside, prefer the Pope's policy of engagement in dialogue with Islam over the Archbishop's "it's unavoidable" despair. There is this to be said for Rowan Williams, though: He may have noticed the 30-some percent of young, British-born Muslims who currently support violent jihad; done the math; and come to an unavoidable (I will not say "inevitable") conclusion. In this perspective, it would be a nice thing to do (not effective, but nice) to try to make the transition as bloodless as possible all around.
Despair is never pretty, but he hardly deserves the condemnation he is receiving now. Better to end calls to fire Mr. Williams or disestablish the Church and instead to begin asking oneself, what creed do you have that would put you on a chestertonian footing with the many "magnaminous Moslems" (less the violence-enamored 30-some percent of young hotheads, of course)in your midst?
Now is the time to believe in something. Don't disestablish a church. Build one. It's desperately needed. Set the boundaries once again. Build walls to maintain friendships, as American poet Robert Frost once encouraged on a much more mundane level.
Once both sides have firm footing and know where they stand, by definition, they will no longer be standing in a quagmire, will they?
Posted by Barbara Beier on February 8, 2008 8:06 AM
Report this comment Islamic ideology is about 1000 years
behind the West. There is not a single Muslim society which has produced an acceptable way of modern life.
Posted by M Wilkinson on February 8, 2008 8:05 AM
Report this comment Phew. At least some beardy hippy doesn't represent the views of the atheist mainstream in Britain's modern, secular society! So we can totally ignore him, as usual.
Mind you, if I was his boss, I'd be wondering why he was selling Daz and not Ariel, if you see what I mean.
Posted by jonnyboy71 on February 8, 2008 8:04 AM
Report this comment Another chapter in the strange death of a once-great country. Why did we commit suicide, when we had a reasonably civilised country to live in just a few decades ago?
Posted by David on February 8, 2008 8:03 AM
Report this comment To paraphrase a quotation relating to an earlier holder of the position of Archbishop of Canterbury.
"Will no man rid me of this meddlesone priest?"
Posted by The Bedfordshire Redneck on February 8, 2008 8:03 AM
Report this comment What on earth is the Archbishop thinking about. How naive to say that it is inevitable. Any person of what ever religion, who enters to stay in this country abide by the Laws of the Country. That is a common factor all over the world. I am sorry Archbishop but you are way out in your thinking. I really do think he should consider whether he should continue his roll in that office.
Posted by Ian L. Jameson on February 8, 2008 8:01 AM
Report this comment Presumably those followers of Mohammed who want strict Islamic law would not have settled in a country where it is not in force. To enforce it upon them would therefore be an act of tyranny. Those who want it in Britain should therefore emigrate to where it is in force and leave their co-religionists here in peace.
Posted by Realist on February 8, 2008 7:56 AM
Report this comment Does this mean that as a Scot, I can demand Scottish law to be applied to me if I decide to live in England? And vice versa?
Posted by Colin Stewart on February 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Report this comment Interesting that Brown is against this saying that British values must be the basis for British law, if this is the case why is his government paying benefits to muslims committing bigamy? Aspects of Sharia law will be imposed on those living in predominantly muslim areas of the UK and the Government will not have the guts to stop it
Posted by james in Canterbury on February 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Report this comment Dr Rowan Williams has shown us two things.
1. That we are two parallel, but very different fragmented societies. Multi-cultural integration has failed, that is what I have learned off the Dr Williams speech.
2. That this as been decided behind the publics backs. If this is not true, then why was the audience dotted with muslims, who then appeared on newsnight to give a pro-view on the 'why' Sharia law should co-exist with UK law?
Posted by Mark Rounding on February 8, 2008 7:54 AM
Report this comment I realise that GB is regarded as a soft touch by anyone wanting an easier life than the one they have in their own country, but this is just saying to all and sundry: "We are so weak, and so willing to embrace just about any culture as long as it isn't our own, that you can say and do what you want here."
Posted by David on February 8, 2008 7:53 AM
Report this comment It is avoidable if we can get shot of this pathetic government in good time.
Referring to the article though, according to the transcript, "Asked if the adoption of sharia law was necessary for community cohesion, Dr Williams told the BBC: "It seems unavoidable and, as a matter of fact, certain conditions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law, so it is not as if we are bringing in an alien and rival system.""
I read that as not advocating the adoption of Sharia law but accepting that it will happen, possibly based on recent actions of this government and the tendency to ban 'Christian' customs and practices in particular lest they cause 'offense' to muslims.
Frankly, the man is an embarrassment, but the Anglican Church has been in self inflicted terminal decline for many years. He can only hasten that end.
Posted by John, Bremerhaven on February 8, 2008 7:52 AM
Report this comment Is it surprising that the Church of England is in terminal decline with such 'leadership'?
Posted by Christopher Watts on February 8, 2008 7:48 AM
Report this comment JAYCEE,
It is the Tasmanian Tiger that is extinct. We still have Tasmaniam Devils.
Posted by David on February 8, 2008 7:47 AM
Report this comment Allowing one culture to implement a few customary laws to its own members sounds very tolerant and reasonable. But it would be the top of a slippery slope. Where would you draw the line, and would you have to keep redrawing it?
Posted by Ian F on February 8, 2008 7:43 AM
Report this comment When someone mentions 'Sharia Law' there is widespread alarm.
The political establishment is trying to push through draconian measures such as ID cards, a surveillance society, restriction of Habeas Corpus and rights to trial by jury (cf the EU's Corpus Juris agenda). The cries against are less vocal due to the stealth aspect.
Posted by Christian Soldier on February 8, 2008 7:40 AM
Report this comment As far as I can see the British people would prefer civil war to sharia law.
Posted by Andrew on February 8, 2008 7:38 AM
Report this comment This is just the thin end of the wedge and can you imagine how delighted the Muslim fraternity must be to hear such comments? Can someone please explain to me why there is so much focus on the demands of this section of the British community when they are still very much in the minority (so far, that is)?
Posted by Colin Cumner on February 8, 2008 7:35 AM
Report this comment
Yet more evidence, if any were needed, that multi-culturalism does not work on the scale now endured in the UK.
There is a simple practical reason - social cohesion is impossible in a society divided into mutually exclusive "communities".
It is a divisive and dangerous mix, capable of manipulation by extremists from all sides.
Dr Williams's ill-judged comments have plumbed new depths of politically correct naivety.
Posted by Bill, London on February 8, 2008 7:34 AM
Report this comment So clergy do have a use by date. Yesterday! What a stupid statement for this man.
Posted by d Artagnan on February 8, 2008 7:34 AM
Report this comment This contry is christian and if other peoples want to live then they should adhere to our laws. I do not say that they should not be allowed to practice their religion but.......if they do not like the laws of the UKa and are not prepared to embrace them ... then they have the option of returning to their own country. Why should the UK change for them after all in many cases they've come here to escape draconian laws only to try and inflict then on us !!!!!! IT IS NOT ON
Posted by Paul on February 8, 2008 7:33 AM
Report this comment I would like to clear something on the statment in this report that (In Afganistan, a student who downloaded a report on women's rights from the internet is facing the death penalty.) THis punishment is not in accordance with shariah law.Thats no even considered as a crime according to shariah law. Before stating this Repoter should first find out what sharia law really is........
Posted by Ali Mumtaz on February 8, 2008 7:21 AM
Report this comment I think Dr Williams has little understanding of sharia law and the far reaching consequences of such archaic law.
It is fine in predominantly Muslim country like Saudi Arabia but would certainly be incompatible in the UK.
Posted by HantuLaut on February 8, 2008 7:20 AM
Report this comment The Archbishop has just made the BNP main stream.
Posted by Benjamin Wright on February 8, 2008 7:19 AM
Report this comment Unless Britain reverses it's demographic march towards Anglo extinction the Archbishop's comments are correct. Nevertheless he has given aid to the Islamisists and, given his position he ought to resign now
Posted by peter harkin on February 8, 2008 7:19 AM
Report this comment Judging by the reaction Rowan Williams comments have caused I'd say we will see civil war before sharia law.
Posted by Andrew on February 8, 2008 7:18 AM
Report this comment Sharia Law in = Myself and my family out.
It's really the women who should be worried, under Sahria law in Saudi, women aren't even allowed to drive!
Posted by K.Evans on February 8, 2008 7:15 AM
Report this comment During the 10th and 11th centuries Muslim Spain under the Umayyad Dynasty enjoyed a tolerance, prosperity and culture without parallel. Unfortunately modern states like Saudi, Iran etc are ruled by "fundamentalists" (the same menace as in all religions) who have no regard for the beliefs of others and impose their own interpretation of their religion on a suffering people.All this is completely irrelevant. Britain which has an ancient tradition based on Common Law, is one of the most tolerant countries in the world. If muslims wish to live under Sharia they should leave Britain at once. There are plenty of other countries available and we wish them well but Britain must remain a "christian" country.
Posted by Mollie Mayes on February 8, 2008 7:14 AM
Report this comment The thin edge of wedge.Thlnk about the insidious creep of the EU.
Posted by John Scott. on February 8, 2008 7:14 AM
Report this comment Yes!
It is proper.
As soon as Christians have the reciprocal rights in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.
Posted by Ben Stanley on February 8, 2008 7:12 AM
Report this comment Choosing which law to obey - What does he think we are politicians ?
Posted by Alex on February 8, 2008 7:08 AM
Report this comment What does that man of sense, Sentamu, have to say about this?
Posted by Alice on February 8, 2008 7:07 AM
Report this comment Rowan WIlliams should resign. He is an embarrassment to civilised values, the Church of England and the nation of England. He has demonstrated that he is an incompetent leader and incapable of standing up for the church and values he represents.
Posted by Christine Constable on February 8, 2008 7:05 AM
Report this comment It is unbelievable that a person with these views should be speaking for the established religion of the country.
It should be a simple requirement that anyone wishing to reside in the UK confirms that he accepts that British law predominates and that this includes that women have equal rights.
Onetime resident.
Posted by Tony White on February 8, 2008 7:01 AM
Report this comment Whilst in no way agreeing with the Archbishop I would point out that there are no hooligans, louts, graffiti-artists, vandals, drunken-drivers, and very few thieves and swindlers in Saudi Arabia and Iran. There must be a reason.
It is sad to see so many comments over pseudonyms or abbreviated names: stand up and be counted if you feel so strongly.
Posted by Christopher Randall on February 8, 2008 6:59 AM
Report this comment The separation of church and State law was a hallmark of Western civilization,providing a secular law for all,some measure of equality and not so in theocratic laws.However, some people abide by church doctrines such as Roman Catholic law 'outlawing abortion while many simply ignore such'laws' without earthly penalty.The move towards accepting certain aspects of Sharia law will lead to its adoption in specific English regions and by a creeping paralysis eventually for all England. The English culture we in the Dominions 'well know' and love to have a little fun with will be dead and gone.
Posted by Clive R. Tucker (publish ID, Wyman) on February 8, 2008 6:59 AM
Report this comment Why do you English people tolerate this type of thing ? If it is not already too late for England it soon will be if you "do nothing". If the Queen is supposed to be the head of the C of E why does she not make an example of the A of C and remove him.
Posted by I.Kemp on February 8, 2008 6:59 AM
Report this comment Williams has gone too far this time with his half-baked ideas, and should resign now. If not, sack him.Any muslim not willing to submit to British law, should vacate the country immediatley.
Posted by James on February 8, 2008 6:57 AM
Report this comment I am a muslim, lawyer and practice some aspects of Islam but I would not want Sharia Law be adopted by anyone in UK. The current law sometime are far better implemented and give the rights to the individual then the Sharia Law could provide.
And then the question arises which Sharia Law will be adopted: The Sunnia Sharia Law, Shia Sharia Law, Deoobandi Sharia Law the endless and because of the different factions there is trouble in the states like Pakistan.
Like somebody said if the want Sharia Law then go to the country that has the Sharia Law!
Posted by M S on February 8, 2008 6:57 AM
Report this comment Bnp membership uperb 1000 percent
Posted by Geoff on February 8, 2008 6:54 AM
Report this comment It is avoidable. Do not let Britains more senior members of society allow it to happen.
Posted by Bill on February 8, 2008 6:49 AM
Report this comment Isnt he a socialist or left wing thinking type?
Perhaps he is working for Gordon -introducing Gordons polices, plans or ideas to see what public reaction is?
Then if it is supported it would be adopted as a Labourite policy - if it caused distress (as it has) it would be dropped (for awhile) by the Government.
Posted by Edward Michaels on February 8, 2008 6:48 AM
Report this comment OK, now can someone who has actually READ the lecture tell me where Rowan Williams advocates the adoption of sharia law in Britain?
Posted by Tim on February 8, 2008 6:41 AM
Report this comment What else can you expect from the Church of Dont Upset Anyone!
Sharia Law, yes in muslim states if they want it, note that Turkey don't want it!
If people want to live in the UK then they have to abide by the laws in place here. If they don't want to abide by those laws then they can and should leave.
Sharia Law has no place in Britain. If you don't like our law go somewhere where the law is more to your liking.
If you stay here it applies to all.
Posted by john whitby on February 8, 2008 6:35 AM
Report this comment Could the Head of the Church of England please speak? She is needed right now.
Posted by greykangaroo on February 8, 2008 6:34 AM
Report this comment The archbishop has lost his marbles. He should resign and be replaced with someone who is prepared to uphold christian values and British law. The only person he speaks for is himself. Pathetic.
Posted by alan richards on February 8, 2008 6:31 AM
Report this comment he should resign, be sacked or whatever happens in the church. His comments are an insult to the UK. I won't repeat the very valid commments by everyone above.
Posted by Adrian on February 8, 2008 6:29 AM
Report this comment Is Sharia law in Britain "unavoidable? At the moment it is but in the future probably not. Why...quite simple. Muslims become the majority in ever increasing political catchment areas, voting higher numbers of Muslim MP's into Parliament who then implent Sharia law, followed by every other aspect of Muslim culture, values and beliefs. End result...Islamic Britain, even Europe? I have lost faith in Politicians hence why I emmergrated with my family from the UK. I have had enough of it and fear for my children's future.
Posted by AJG on February 8, 2008 6:26 AM
Report this comment This old codger lives in a grace & favour palace and his life suffers no indignity, or restriction of liberty.
Pack him off to Saudi Arabia for a while to observe the treatment of women, and non-muslim men and then see if he is as tolerant there.
Posted by Terence on February 8, 2008 6:25 AM
Report this comment No to any adaptation to any other form of law. British law is one of the best, most open and transparent legal machines in the world, and if people chose to live in the UK, because lets be honest they are not forced to come or stay in the UK, that's their problem! If our legal system does not suit the beliefs or character of anyone, from anywhere, even the British, then they should simply move to a country where the system is more to their liking, and there are many in the world to chose from.
Posted by Marita Gray on February 8, 2008 6:17 AM
Report this comment The Queen is Defender of the Faith, all law is enacted in the Queens name. Surely by allowing sharia law this undermines the Queen and her role as head of the protestant christian faith and makes her role untenable. The problem with the liberal elite of Britain is that they judge Islam by their own moral and ethical codes, unfortunately having lived in the middle east for many years muslims have a completely alien set of morals and ethics, many of which are completely opposite to that of the western mindset. These morals are NOT the morals of the so called extremist, they are the code by which ALL muslims operate.
Posted by J Wallis on February 8, 2008 6:15 AM
Report this comment when people impoverished in their own country decide to leave for greener pastures to another country ---they have already forfieted their love for their own country.Therefore they now should love the country that gives them what their country of birth could not give. To insist that the new country should allow them to follow their old country's laws is stupid and brainless
Posted by RASA on February 8, 2008 6:14 AM
Report this comment Religion and politics should never mix. The man should keep his opinions to himself. All through history, religion has caused more conflict than anything else. The laws of this land are already established. When a person lives in another country, they abide by that countries laws - the same should go for people living here.
Posted by Bob Clapperton on February 8, 2008 6:07 AM
Report this comment Anyone who comes to live in this country should accept that they must live with the laws of the country which have evolved over the centuries. No way can we have a section of society living under different laws.
Posted by Alan on February 8, 2008 6:07 AM
Report this comment It is time for the Archbishop of Canterbury to resign. He seems to be incapable of performing his duties, and needs to retire before he does any further damage.
Posted by Jeremy Leslie-Spinks on February 8, 2008 6:07 AM
Report this comment poor Dr Rowan Williams, head in the clouds, he seems to have absolutely no idea about what sharia law in reality is.
Posted by le on February 8, 2008 6:03 AM
Report this comment Is Dr williams a closet member of the BNP?
Posted by Tony Atkins on February 8, 2008 6:03 AM
Report this comment The Church of England badly needs John Sentamu to take over to start a robust defence of Christian values in the face of this socially ruinous multiculturalism. We must not support the influence of sharia law, which appears simply to uphold the repression of women's rights. Time to take a firm stand and say no. Speak up Sentamu!
Posted by John on February 8, 2008 5:57 AM
Report this comment No. This is a secular state and should always remain so. If someone wants to live under Sharia Law, why immigrate to the UK? We talk alot of our multi-cultural society but the truth is this is a white anglo-saxon country and our laws are based on the collective values of the majority! We pander too much to minorities who seem to have a disproportionate voice!!
Posted by James G on February 8, 2008 5:57 AM
Report this comment It seems to be that every high ranking Church of England cleric lives in cloud cuckoo land. If the Archbishop wants to adopt Shariah law he should forgo the Anglican Chush and become a muslim cleric. Admittedly he would have to give up some of his perks and come down to earth.
Alan Rutherford
Posted by Alan Rutherford on February 8, 2008 5:15 AM
Report this comment Maybe or even clearly it is time for the Queen to step in and remove this man. How dare he even think such a thing.
Posted by David on February 8, 2008 5:12 AM
Report this comment Dr Williams is a very silly billy.That's all. Not to be taken seriously.
Posted by Robert on February 8, 2008 5:11 AM
Report this comment Sharia law?
Want to introduce it?
get out. And take the Gandalf look alike with you.
Posted by gingernuts on February 8, 2008 4:59 AM
Report this comment Enoch Powell was the true prophet.
Have the English totally lost it?
(PS I'm Australian)
Posted by Mike on February 8, 2008 4:55 AM
Report this comment While I disagree with the archbish's argument and conclusions, I think the vitriol and insults poured out in these comments shows how absurdly nasty, vile and brainless these commenters are. Most of you are disgusting and unpleasant people who I don't want as my neighbours. Your thoughts stink, your words drip with vitriol.
Dr Williams is wrong, but that doesn't make him evil or subversive; he's just got a world view that is a bit odd. And he hasn't suggesting hurting anybody, just made a silly suggestion.
Have you gobshites never heard of "tolerance"? Or "free speech"?
Posted by T O Lawrence on February 8, 2008 4:50 AM
Report this comment Please do not fall for the fallacy that sharia personal law will only impact Muslims; it won't. For one thing it's highly unfair to wives, mothers and daughters in matters of inheritance and divorce settlement.
Posted by MaryJ on February 8, 2008 4:14 AM
Report this comment "The Archbishop provoked the row by saying
Britain had to "face up to the fact" that some
citizens did not relate to this country's legal
system" It's very simple, if they don't relate, then
why are they here, they should leave and move to
a country in which they can 'relate.' The UK is
governed by a parliamentary democracy not a
theocracy. I would also like to suggest that Dr
Rowen Williams is so out of touch with the British
people and as the leader of the Anglican Church
that he should resign.
Posted by James Worth on February 8, 2008 3:51 AM
Report this comment Has Williams lost his grasp on reality?
This is a secular society and it must remain so. Our ancestors fought and died for the exclusion of religion from state. We are not about to change this to cater for the beliefs of immigrants.
It is our freedoms which entice incomers to our society. I doubt if they, with the exception of Williams' counterparts, would be agreeable to them being altered.
Posted by cambayne on February 8, 2008 3:50 AM
Report this comment This is revolting. Speaking as an immigrant one can not expect to live the same kind of life as in ones homeland along with the economic benefits of living in England. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If living in a country that imposes Sharia law is important to you then there are many other countries that adopt it. The implementation of any religious laws impedes the democratic process and will undoubtedly contribute to the demise of England.
Posted by F. J. Dyason on February 8, 2008 3:49 AM
Report this comment The introduction of sharia law to accommodate muslim zealots, apart from being nationally abhorrent and socially divisive, would mark the first step towards the disintegartion of the established laws and traditions of this country built up over a thousand years!
Posted by Beverley Niblett on February 8, 2008 3:46 AM
Report this comment RESIGN!
Posted by E.Ford on February 8, 2008 3:46 AM
Report this comment A Christian leader should give voice to the oppressed, namely the Muslim women whose lives are ground down by the patriarchial obscenity of sharia law. Instead Rowan Williams sides with their oppressors and the dark side of Islam. "Social cohesion" must not be based on injustice.
Williams does not speak for me as a liberal Australian Anglican.
Posted by Jeremy Buxton on February 8, 2008 3:28 AM
Report this comment
Under Sharia law my religion, in my own country, would be illegal. Is there nobody who will rid us of this hairy menace?
Posted by O Zangado on February 8, 2008 3:26 AM
Report this comment He has lost his marbles. The is Britain where British laws are upheld. If people want to incorporate and religious laws, then they may be happier living in those countries where such laws are enforced.
As a UK born and raised Hindu, I most certainly do not expect the laws to be changed to suit my religion. In fact religion should not be part of the legal system.
In a nut shell those wanting sharia laws, please go to countries that practise those laws and live happily ever after and leave us be.
Posted by Miss Patel on February 8, 2008 3:25 AM
Report this comment Why do you let these people undermine you?
Posted by John McVie on February 8, 2008 3:11 AM
Report this comment So many people with so much to say!
When are you going to do something about it!! Actions speak louder than words...
Posted by Tony Mc on February 8, 2008 2:58 AM
Report this comment If the country has reached a point where such lunacy can be voiced by such a man then you are all fighting for what has already been lost. I left England a long time ago & I already felt that nothing would entice me back. This only confirms that feeling.
I have no interest in any religion, pointless aberrations of weak minds, & the idea that any part of any aberration should damage a secular legal system solely in the interests of a male minority is frightening, yes, frightening. Look at the changes that have over taken England over the last 20 years & think what changes could take place over the next 20 years, that is where the fear comes from. Watching the English (including me) leave rather than defend what was theirs should make us all ashamed to call ourselves English.
We should not be surprised or angered by this lunatic idea, it fits perfectly with the way things have been going.
I feel stateless, homeless, because the land I grew up in no longer exists, & I am sure I am mot the only one.
Posted by Tokugawa on February 8, 2008 2:55 AM
Report this comment All the negative respondents to this issue should look at the positives from such a move.
Given the rate of adultery in the UK (if you believe the tabloid press, everyone is at it) and the Sharia treatment of adultery which is execution I believe. The population will decline so markedly in the first few years after its introduction that all the transport, pollution, greenhouse gas and housing problems should all be resolved.
What are you complaining about?
Posted by Ian Hodgson on February 8, 2008 2:54 AM
Report this comment As regards what he actually did say in its totality, most of these comments are shrill, ill informed, nonsense. Read the whole lecture paper, for goodness sake. The principles he was expounding are clearly relevant to every faith. Get it here
link
Then see if it might not be so wrong to think that perhaps the civil law might be able to accommodate the voluntary acceptance and enforcement by some people of a LESSER standard of rights, albeit WITHIN the universal civil rights STILL available to them if they wish to exercise them, should that help those who choose such a path to satisfy their moral obligations within the framework of their own faith. That seems quite a sensible approach in an increasingly complex society, as opposed to forcing a single universal code down everyone's throats. We already do some of this anyway in other areas, so it's not new
I didn't read him as saying that we should incorporate into UK law the 'primitive' traditional religious regulation that most people associate with 'Sharia'. In fact I thought he was saying the opposite.
The danger now is that what he advocates will still come to pass in some manner, but because of the public hysteria that it would induce if done transparently, (as clearly seen here and elsewhere today) the politicians will introduce it by way of appeasement in an underhand manner, with all sorts of shadowy compromises, made that potentially will allow for the insidious elements to creep in too
And no, I don't work at Lambeth Palace and am not CoE
Posted by Avana Beach on February 8, 2008 2:51 AM
Report this comment LEST WE FORGET
British soldiers died in order to maintain the British
way of life. The British way of life in 2008 would be
unrecognizable to them.
Posted by Vanda Thompson on February 8, 2008 2:45 AM
Report this comment >>So tell me fair and law abiding British folks, jewish law for jewish people has been in this country for over 100 years.
Is this ok with you?
Posted by Trialblazer on February 7, 2008 8:15 PM<<
Not where it conflicts with the laws of the State, it hasn't
Which is what this fruitbat is proposing.
Or hadn't you noticed?
Posted by David Walker on February 8, 2008 2:38 AM
Report this comment Rowan Williams is a pluperfect fool. No wonder much of the Anglican Church wants to go its own way. If the U.K. takes Williams' idiotic advice, there won't always be an England.
Posted by Larry Thornberry on February 8, 2008 2:24 AM
Report this comment A while ago, I wrote that there was a real need to choose between being ruled by the City of London or by English law, and that the choice was REAL and had to be made.
I made that comment only after a great deal of thought and quite a bit of research into the practices of the stock exchanges in New York and London over some decades.
This business of Sharia law is the flip side of the same coin. It seems to me that we have lost our history. Whatever made Britain great, it was certainly the determination of it's ordinary people, and the development of a system of civil law and equity that made justice a common principal theme in the society. Not everyone could have access to the same legal resources as the rich, but in principle we were all under the same protective system of ideals.
The thing I object to the most is a stunning resemblance to the stew of "historical inevitablility" which was a product of Marx's defective critique. We don't need that. We need to recognise out own responsibilities and duties, and not just go along with some pressure group, be it financiers or mullahs.
That is, if we want to be free agents.
Posted by Mark Grindell on February 8, 2008 2:19 AM
Report this comment What an awful statement to make from the head of the Church of England. If it is possible he should be dismissed from this position as quickly as possible before he makes any more gaffs like this. He could always retire in Saudi Arabia, I am sure they would welcome him with open arms.
Posted by Jean Kaye (ex pat) on February 8, 2008 2:18 AM
Report this comment If I moved to another country I would expect to live under that countries laws of that country as I do...(living outside the UK now).
If muslims want an Islamic life under Sharia law then move to an Islamic country where it exists, Saudi for example.
Posted by Robby Smith on February 8, 2008 2:11 AM
Report this comment Shariah law is unavoidable in Britain as long as the British refuse to show some backbone to these Islamists. What ever happened to the the refrain..."Britons never shall be slaves!"? Some people point out that in the UK, some orthodox Jews have chosen to arbitrate civil disputes at the Beit Din. Why is Shariah law any different? Well whereas I do not know the particulars of Jewish law, I do know that British Jews don't blow up their fellow citizens, nor do they aspire to impose their religion upon the rest of us.
God Save the Queen...and the United Kingdom!
Posted by Benjamin on February 8, 2008 2:02 AM
Report this comment This is nonsense.
We are one people and need one law for all.
I SMELL DISTRACTION.
Who is talking about the expense scandals concerning of MPs. All has been conveniently quietened.
Posted by jerry on February 8, 2008 1:59 AM
Report this comment Will someone explain to the Archbishop Robin Williams that shariah law is *NOT* 'unavoidable' in Britain, and is in fact something that will be resisted by me and millions of others.
I'm fed up with these men in dresses telling us how they want the Law to be.
Posted by Barbara Suzuki on February 8, 2008 1:57 AM
Report this comment Rowan old fruit, it's easy. Just say no. Try it. Feel the calcium flowing back into your spine.
Posted by Peter Carter on February 8, 2008 1:56 AM
Report this comment There's such a thing as being so open-minded that your brains fall out...
Time for the dis-establishment Of the C of E, I think; and while we're about it, no more tax breaks or 'faith schools' for any religion.
Let's be direct; THERE IS NO GOD. It is fiction. The human race has to grow up. We do not need an imaginary friend. Look at the trouble it causes.
Posted by Sally. on February 8, 2008 1:32 AM
Report this comment People can agree to have their disputes mediated
by anyone they want, including religious leaders.
The question is how the civil courts deal with the
mediation agreements.
Given certain trends within Islam, I believe it is
essential for Muslim women to retain access to
civil courts so that sexist cultural practices are
not imposed on them against their will. For
example, a couple might agree to a divorce
settlement negotiated with the help of a
religious leader. As long as both sides truly
agree, this is fine. But there should be a right of
appeal to ordinary courts in the case of duress. I
would not trust a sharia court (or any other
private body not subject to the democratic
process) to have the final say.
Posted by M.C. on February 8, 2008 1:31 AM
Report this comment Almost every objection to Dr Williams crassness has been made.
He is obviously completely unaware of the implications of living under the shadow of Sharia Law.
Posted by resigned on February 8, 2008 1:24 AM
Report this comment Time for the 'British' (if any still inhabit the UK) to grow a spine or lose your culture entirely.
Posted by eustace tytsonnable on February 8, 2008 1:20 AM
Report this comment Have you people gone mad?
Rule of Law (even an "unwritten" common-law constitution such as UK's) MUST mean the SECULAR application of laws to all citizens and residents within civil society. Canon law is all very well within the faith, but it cannot and must not extend to the broader society in a free and democratic polity.
We had the very same debate in my home country, Canada, when fuzzy-minded political oligarchs thought it would be splendid to stroke up the Patriarchy by introducing Sharia as a civil law instrument for the oppression and subjugation of Canadian women who happened to be Muslim.
Opposition from the grassroots put paid to that scheme.
Posted by Satyabrata Das on February 8, 2008 1:19 AM
Report this comment Just this week an American woman was arrested and beaten in Saudi Arabia. Her crime? Having coffee with a male non-relative. Folks that's what you are in for.
Posted by James on February 8, 2008 1:05 AM
Report this comment Its time for British people, once and for all, to stand up and say "ENOUGH!!"
Posted by Tim on February 8, 2008 1:02 AM
Report this comment Sharia is inevitable in Britain unless the great British people wake up and see what their country is becoming.
Posted by Ron on February 8, 2008 12:57 AM
Report this comment What the Archbisschop simply argued is that law, especially family law, should become more inclusive, sensitive and tolerant to other groups in society as well, whether that be other groups from different cultures or religions or other genders and children, instead of at present being almost completely dominated by the selfexpressed interests of feminists, lesbians and homosexuals alone. In my opinion the Archbisschop made a compelling case in that respect and an open democratic society should take at heart to be more inclusive to all groups instead of exclusively adhering to the interests of some overrepresented groups dominating over others. What he calls for is a new and more respecting balance that needs to be struck. I agree with him on that. Regarding the reactions here: Many of those actually speak for themselves as being below par as far as their intolerance, politically correctness, bad mouthing and offending nature is concerned.
Posted by Peter on February 8, 2008 12:55 AM
Report this comment The day that sharia law is legal in Britain will be the day that all of the native population have left or otherwise been 'neutralised'.
In other words it will NEVER be lawful in Britain and the sooner those who seek it understand that the sooner they may make the effort to integrate with the people of their host country, the British.
Posted by abigail on February 8, 2008 12:55 AM
Report this comment What the hell's the matter with this man?
Posted by R. Yeatley on February 8, 2008 12:54 AM
Report this comment A veritable Chamberlain of a religious leader! Truly a man appointed to preside over and facilitate the demise of the church he is supposed to lead. The sad thing is that he is unable to appreciate the contempt his opinions inspire and the harm they do. Bishop Nazir Ali sees and speaks the truth more clearly than this fool ever will.
Posted by Euripedes Res Ponds on February 8, 2008 12:54 AM
Report this comment Perhaps those that can't accept our laws should be told to leave...better still evicted en masse.
Posted by John Wordsworth on February 8, 2008 12:51 AM
Report this comment This England is not the country I once knew as a lad. Whatever happens here never fails to amaze and disgust me. We have lost our identity and we are fast losing our heritage thanks to the addled Politicians, the PC brigade and the likes of the Archbishop.
I often wonder about the men who fought bravely and died in WW2 for the freedom of this country. What would they think of this country today.
Posted by Stuart on February 8, 2008 12:47 AM
Report this comment I'm sure that Christianity dictated a lot of our laws, like polygamy being illegal and suchlike, but in the modern world should our legal system really be dictated by our religion? We operate in a world that offers freedom of religion, the laws shouldn't be switched and changed to cater for them all, they shouldn't set out to cater to any specifically. Maybe there are some laws that might benefit from revisiting considering the multi-culturalism and variety of opinions now practiced in the UK, but not from a religious stand-point.
What worries me is not the idea itself, but some of the nationalist claptrap being spouted by certain commenters.
Posted by Disturbed on February 8, 2008 12:46 AM
Report this comment For nearly forty years I have lived in Japan and abided by its laws. If I found them unacceptable I would move elsewhere, not demand that they be changed to suit my convenience.
Posted by Heather on February 8, 2008 12:42 AM
Report this comment I'm not sure what the majority of the UK's population are up to, but Williams is just revealing another strand of official thinking that would be extremely unpopular if my fellow citizens were ever awake. All I can hear is gentle snoring, so perhaps politics is no longer to the UK taste. A diet of consumerism, TV and football has been enough to sedate them. It's probably too late now.
Posted by colin on February 8, 2008 12:40 AM
Report this comment Yes, inevitable. Not only England, but the whole of Europe will become an Islamic state, because Europeans, as far back as the Enlightenment, have let go of the very thing which brought peace and stability: Christianity. Many will say, however, that Christianity has been repsponsible for a lot of wars in the past - true, especially when foolish Church men like Dr. Rowan Williams are in charge. Francis of Assisi respected Muslims, but he never asked Christians to follow Islam. More recently, Mother Theresa of Calcutta looked after poor Muslims, she never asked the world to accept Islamic laws.
Posted by John Simmons on February 8, 2008 12:34 AM
Report this comment For Christ's sake, this Arc-Bishop must be tamed and educated about been British as when you are in Rome, you do like a Roman
Posted by tal on February 8, 2008 12:32 AM
Report this comment Doesn't he realise that it would divide our society even more? What planet is he on?
Posted by J S Taylor on February 8, 2008 12:29 AM
Report this comment Here in Malaysia, the Anglican and Catholic churches have "postponed" Ash Wednesday since it coincides with Chinese New Year. It is that willingness of church leaders to discard such basic tenents of faith as the 40 days of Lent in order not to offend other religions (Chinese New Year is, after all, a sepcifically non-Christian feast) which has caused Christianity to become universally perceived as shallow and ineffectual. An Anglican Archbishop suggesting further enfeebling of Christian law only goes to further the rapid and inevitable disintegration of a once great faith.
Posted by Dr Marc Rochester on February 8, 2008 12:23 AM
Report this comment It is already here in London I hear. 7 courts, but their decisions are
not enforceable.
Similar Jewish courts also operate in the UK. A good friend who was
senior in his Temple told me a little about Orthodox marriage law
and divorce. He reassured me that some of its harsher aspects are
not enforced, but I would like this looked into in conjunction with
examination of the relevant Sharia courts.
It is time to examine all this, including any Hindu practices, before
making any decision as to whether any of these should remain on a
non binding basis.
We must bear in mind that banning anything tends to lead to
feelings of victimisation and rebellion, especially among the young.
English Law must remain the guide here, and Scottish Law in
Scotland.
Posted by Quietzapple on February 8, 2008 12:20 AM
Report this comment I have no objection to people voluntarily, and I stress voluntarily, subjecting themselves to an extra-judicial process for arbitration of purely civil matters. It doesn't even have to involve religion. Keeps cases out of court, minimizes attorneys' fees, and everybody is happy.
But divorce (and many other situations where Sharia Law might apply) is more than a civil matter. It involves rights and obligations associated with a legal state known as marriage, and as such must be administered in a manner that affords all concerned the full protection of all aspects of the law. The law that applies to everybody!
I support this basic issue: One ought not move to a country where one disagrees with that country's laws--any of them!
Posted by Bruce on February 8, 2008 12:20 AM
Report this comment Khaled:
Understanding Islam has got nothing to do with the issue. Let me know when Iran or Saudi Arabia have introduced Canon Law (Catholic).
I am told sharia means "the way to a watering place". There are pubs aplenty in the UK. That is the closest that Sharia Law need get to being implemented in the green and pleasant land.
What the hell is this, a reverse crusade by the saracen?
The Founding Fathers were on to something with the separation of church and state.
Posted by Vasco on February 8, 2008 12:15 AM
Report this comment Burying bad news again. MPs are beeing bullied and blackmailed into signing our country over to Europa.
The Eu will not allow gender discrimination so this is irrelevant.
Posted by YORKY on February 8, 2008 12:15 AM
Report this comment People are criticising Dr Williams' comments because they are scared and ignorant of what shariah law is. Media scaremongering has caused people to associate Islam with terrorism and shariah with stoning and injustice because of the way that the system has been abused by certain muslim countries. So when an intelligent man such as Dr Williams, who knows much more about shariah than most of the general public, offers a positive opinion about shariah it is inevitable that there will be comments such as those made here.
With regards to whether or not he should be removed, if a person's position is threatened whenever s/he says something they believe is true, what does that say about free speech in this country.
Posted by Sharon on February 8, 2008 12:12 AM
Report this comment I guess there is no bastion of sanity left on Earth.
Before England is run by Muslim clerics, those who object should stand up. If it does happen would the remaining sane people please move here to the US so that we can hold out longer.
Posted by Eric on February 8, 2008 12:11 AM
Report this comment Carry on like this and Sharia law is inevitable. What is worse, this is/will be athin edge of the wedge and unchecked by the end of the century UK will be an Islamic country and by force too as has happened for over a 1000 years or so.
Posted by Mr MK Oak on February 8, 2008 12:09 AM
Report this comment Well Done Rowan, using your position as head of the Christian Church in the UK to encourage the furtherance of Islam to the detriment of the faith you're meant to defend.
Here's a book you might like to read:
link
Posted by Phil Callaghan on February 7, 2008 11:59 PM
Report this comment This archbishop should be de-frocked and thrown out. He is nothing but trouble. Anglo Saxon expatriate Brits have to obey the laws of the foreign countries they reside in (China etc), so why can't those ethnics that want to have the pleasure to reside in the UK. Our country, our laws! The UK is not a 'one country two law systems place."
Posted by Weaver on February 7, 2008 11:51 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams is utterly wrong. We have one rule of law in this country, not several.
If there are good principles in Sharia Law that we should incorporate as part of English Law then fine. But they must go through parliament as bills in the usual way first.
A secular legal system is a better guarantee of religious tolerance and freedom than anything else. As USA demonstrates.
Rowan Williams is destroying the relevance and credibility of C of E.
Posted by Dr Peter Davies on February 7, 2008 11:45 PM
Report this comment As a church going Anglican it worries me that when the spiritual head of the Church of England makes such an ill conceived comment it brings my church into disrepute. Instead of upholding his own faith and the Christian roots of our nation he is dabbling in matters best left to the politicians. Of course followers of different faiths will have different rules by which they try to live their lives but the law of the land must be the same for all, applied equally without fear or favour and without undue regard to any particular group within society.
Posted by William Epps on February 7, 2008 11:43 PM
Report this comment Sharia law in Britain can be avoided--all that is required is for the British to remember they are British and to stop apologizing for it.
Posted by Joe in Arizona on February 7, 2008 11:40 PM
Report this comment Not here !Not Now! Not Ever!However I would like to say this. in this country and if he feels his time would be better spent preaching the gospel according to Mahamid then he is not welcome here and I would remind him (Quote Old testament) Beware of false profits! end quote! And has a devout Christian I can no longer keep turning the other cheek
Posted by john on February 7, 2008 11:32 PM
Report this comment Once again Rowan Williams has shown just how far out of touch he really is with mainstream public opinion. His comments provide further evidence of the level to which the obsessively politically correct have infiltrated the highest echelons of our public institutions.
Posted by Keith Lonsdale on February 7, 2008 11:30 PM
Report this comment The law has already been updated to reflect sharia compliant commercial products and services (eg sharia mortgages). Why is it any different for family law? Or iheritance law? Especially for those law abiding muslims who wish to follow it and have it applied...
Posted by Jak on February 7, 2008 11:27 PM
Report this comment Most countries that talk about implementing sharia law in fact do not - at best selectively picking bits that suit them to appease their populations.
Furthermore, most commentators don't seem to appreciate that sharia law in the muslim world (if properly applied) has historically and does conceptually allow for other religious minorities (like christians/jews) to practice and legally enforce their religion on their own communities...
Posted by jak on February 7, 2008 11:25 PM
Report this comment Most of those commenting appear not to have read the Archbishop's actual speech - for those who have, he has a point.
The discussion is a complex one, and most people seem to be relying on their misinformed views of what sharia comprises, and a typically British racist outlook on those who want legal changes from minority sections should go back home whereas if it is white people who want law changes that's up for debate...
Posted by Jak on February 7, 2008 11:24 PM
Report this comment Of course he should be removed. But the current useless government will merely appoint another wet left wing do gooder with no interest in Christianity.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 11:21 PM
Report this comment At least we will get a chance to vote the Rusty Chancellor out of No.10 - but how do we go about removing his confused counterpart in the tatty beard?
Posted by Henry2 on February 7, 2008 11:20 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop of Canterbury is becoming a menace to society in this country. If muslims wish to have their own courts then so be it, jewish people have their own, but the law of the land is the only law which counts and it should stay that way. As a British Jew I was brought up to understand that the law of the land is for all irrespective of race or religion, and I would be extremely dismayed if this would ever change.
Posted by Mrs. R. Woolf on February 7, 2008 11:17 PM
Report this comment Richard Dawkins for Archbishop of Canterbury, I say.
Posted by Stuart Morris on February 7, 2008 11:15 PM
Report this comment I can hardly believe what I've just read. He wouldn't mind Sharia, I suppose, as long as if doesn't affect him. For example, how about barring crosses like the one he wears from areas with a high percentage of muslim population? Being a Spanish Catholic, I do not know much about the Church of England, but can't British people, who pay Dr. William's way do, something about him? Is high treason still par of the law of the land in Britain?
Posted by agolmar on February 7, 2008 11:09 PM
Report this comment Over my dead body.
Posted by Anne Marshall on February 7, 2008 11:09 PM
Report this comment
NEVER NEVER NEVER
Posted by Sam on February 7, 2008 11:08 PM
Report this comment In an era of increasingly pronounced moral and cultural relativism the bottom line is that we share a common Law. Set that aside and there is no longer one thing to which we collectively assent.
Is this an insidious attempt by the Archbishop to constrain people to seek refuge under Christianity ?
Posted by What the big idea? on February 7, 2008 11:05 PM
Report this comment The sweet irony. The head of a religion hated by islam submitting to
dhimmification in a bid to appease islam who wants him and his religion
destroyed anyway.
Posted by S. Morris on February 7, 2008 11:04 PM
Report this comment where are the modern Isabella and Ferdinand. They'get my vote
Posted by Peter Kelly on February 7, 2008 11:04 PM
Report this comment The Church of England has no longer any kind of leadership authority so what the Archbishop says doesnt really matter at all except cause controversy. When in Rome, do as the Romans. You want to live in a country, you abide by the laws of that country. Sharia Law is a replacement for legal statutesa and encourages a two-tier society.
Posted by Tony L on February 7, 2008 11:03 PM
Report this comment This article and the one on multiple benefits for wives have really got me wound up as I sit on the other side of the planet watching events going on back home. What a mess! Britain, GROW UP! THINGS CHANGE! MOVE ON! Learn how to handle the multicultural society that now exists. The guy is being villified for actually speaking the truth.Would you prefer he doesn't? Of course I DON'T agree with him and the inevitability of Sharia law becoming part of British law. These two articles demonstrate the total confusion between state and religion. What is needed is a modernised version of existing British law which removes any rights for ANY religious faction that go against the common law for all citizens. FULL STOP.State FIRST and anything else is then a freedom of expression under the law of the land.
Let's start a movement for reform along these lines by referendum. Just watch the worms come out of the woodwork if this were to happen! Vested interests will NEVER let this happen. Oh well. Back to sleep.Better stay here a bit longer
Posted by Common Sense on February 7, 2008 11:02 PM
Report this comment It is heartening to read everybody’s response to the Archbishop’s bizarre and dangerous comments. If you want to let your MP know how you feel (like I did) you will find the e-mail at (link). Lets stop the Archbishop’s madness before it goes any further.
Posted by Michael on February 7, 2008 10:53 PM
Report this comment As an Englishman (white) who travels and works in the Middle East, I passed on the ideas of Dr Williams to a Muslim business associate oversees. After having stopped laughing, he stated that if our government gave way to religious leaders as some act of appeasement, we would become the biggest laughing stock in the world. Nuff said.
Posted by John Davie on February 7, 2008 10:52 PM
Report this comment I hate to use such words but are people so stupid!!!! Firstly this is not a law running parallel to British law - it will run under it and anything that encroaches British law will not be accepted. Secondly, such laws already exist - it's just not legally recognised. Under British law, any two parties can agree on any arbitration they desire - hence Shariah law can already be undertaken and is being undertaken! If it gets a stamp from approval from the legal system than it can be 'checked' and kept 'under balance'. Surely the State would want that, rather than have shadowy ad-hoc rulings being made by people who are not held accountable. Thirdly, it will save a lot of money to the State! Why get legal aid for divorces when it can be done ‘in-house’ and the State not be drained of its resources.
Finally, why the hypocrisy? Why is the Jewish Beth Din recognised by the State – is that not running in “parallel” with British law? Furthermore, is not European law and British law running in “parallel”?
Posted by J. Adem on February 7, 2008 10:48 PM
Report this comment Dr Rowan Williams,is symptomatic of the moral decline of Britain. The modern politically correct Church of England has long had as much in common with Christian teachings as Diamond White cider has to apples. New labour supporting media figures who care more about seeing themselves on televison than preaching Christian doctrine from any pulpits. Is there any political party going to say "enough is enough" other then the BNP?
Oh of course according to todays church of England edict God wants us to vote for anyone but the BNP and people who stick up for the right to a Christian Britain won't be allowed into heaven.
Posted by D whitts on February 7, 2008 10:47 PM
Report this comment To slightly misquote King Henry Will no one rid
us of this turbulent Archbishop?
Four words entirely sum up my reaction. They are
non negotiable. They are :
Over My Dead Body!
I suspect many others will feel similarly
Posted by Jenny Day on February 7, 2008 10:47 PM
Report this comment What is the process to sack an Archbishop of Canterbury? I think it is time it was dusted off.
Posted by simon coulter on February 7, 2008 10:47 PM
Report this comment The beauty of British society lies in respect and adoption of rules and regulations from other religions and respecting as well. Similarly Sharia law is the need for the British Society and should be Implemented.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 10:45 PM
Report this comment Malaya has a duel law system, with a separate penal code for muslims. It works very well.
Adultery is perfectly legal, but not for muslims. If convicted, muslims are liable to flogging.
It doesn't affect non-muslims. And the muslims are fully supportive. I don't see the problem.
Posted by Freddie on February 7, 2008 10:45 PM
Report this comment If ever there was an argument for vigorous adoption of a completely secular legal and, especially, education system, Dr Williams has provided it.
There may come a time when the majority of the population gives a mandate for change - that is how democracy works. In the meantime, however, the Government should close ALL religious schools and oblige all citizens and residents of UK to comply with national laws. And if existing so-called 'human rights' legislation interferes with this process, then the next Queen's speech should detail the new legislation to be introduced to ensure that democratic secular law takes precedence.
Posted by ACM on February 7, 2008 10:42 PM
Report this comment The man is a complete idiot. If I create my own religion and set of laws can I then flout English law with impunity? I think not!
Posted by Jim Watts on February 7, 2008 10:40 PM
Report this comment while travelling to work by means of my local taxi rank i was haveing a nice conversation with my asian friend about how there is nowhere better than england in a nice summer and he swiftly agreed. My point being if it aint broke dont try to fix it please leave england the way it is.
Posted by the bluefish on February 7, 2008 10:40 PM
Report this comment What now is the Queen, the head of the Church of England, going to do about this man? Or will she continue to display her usual impotence in regard to matters affecting the State and the will of the people?
Posted by Paul on February 7, 2008 10:34 PM
Report this comment . What a dangerous and stupid thing for the Archbishop to say. Considering all things -including his lack of leadership in all matters facing the crumbling Cof E, he should resign or be forced out of office. His remarks are deeply offensive to everything this country and his own religion stands for and offers dangerous comfort to extremist agitator groups fighting to establish fundamentalist Islam in Britain. From such a figure the comments almost amount to subversive sctivity -subversive in terms of underming the application of the Rule of Law to the whole population of these Islands by suggesting that it is inappropriate for some groups. It is a truly astonishing outburst from someone in his position
Posted by david on February 7, 2008 10:33 PM
Report this comment ...acting like some 60'/70's sociology lecturer
Posted by pip jones on February 7, 2008 10:27 PM
Report this comment This is an example of yet another senior figure hell bent on erroding the values of this country. It has been established that multi-culturism doesn't work, you cannot have one society within another it sets up divisions and look where it has got us. Just as you cannot have one law for one and one for another. One law for everyone based on the traditional values of the country.
I don't blame the Muslims for wanting it. It is their way of life and the idiots running this country seem to give in to minority views hoping to win votes no doubt. When we go to live in other counries we abide by their law without much fuss. So why do WE think that we must change our law when a minority moves to our country.
I am a Christian married to a Hindu. We had a Hindu wedding and then needed get the marrage registered at the registry. This is accepted as what you need to do, as the ceromony wasn't legally recognised as we don't live in a Hindu country. I have no problem with Muslims practicing their religion and seeking Shia rulings etc but these don't need to be recognised by law. Pacticing Muslims should then ensure that they implament that ruling in accordance with the law.
Posted by James on February 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Report this comment Where is UKIP standing in all this? I would have thought they could channel all the fuss being generated into a strong political base? I'm applalled at what is happening in the UK. I am living and have lived and worked all over the world -including Arab countries - and never would any foreign views be allowed in the first place let alone accepted. If any expat stepped over this line, he or she would be on the next plane out ASAP. Anyway, courteously, we abided by the rules as it was our choice being there in the first place. Don't cry for me Inglaterra!
Posted by S. Tait on February 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Report this comment The simple truth to this suggestion is that if people of differing beleifs do not wish to be part of our society they have a choice leave and return toa country more suited to them.It would be impossible to countenance this sort of thing in say Saudi or Iran, why should England who has already given away its nationalioalism and its traditions even think that this could be pissible.
Posted by edwina on February 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Report this comment As a practising atheist, there are many aspects of British law with which I disagree and, as a Labour voter, I am sorry to say that most of them have been passed in the last ten years. Under Dr Williams proposed dispensation am I at liberty to disregard legislation which does not suit?
Posted by ben levy on February 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Report this comment Can her majesty sack him? She is his boss after all. The man is an idiot. However, he obviously feels he can utter such nonsense given what he sees around him. For axample, the ruling that bigamous husbands can claim for more than one wife where bigamy is permitted in his home country - that was teh DWP bending over backwards to apease an ethnic community, I wonder which one. Sharia is creeping into our lives , slowly but surely , through rulings such as teh one from the DWP. No wonder Williams feels he can spout this tripe.
Posted by K Monaghan, Surrey on February 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Report this comment Evidently this ridiculous man is unfit for his high office (like so many others) and should be removed, pronto
Posted by Ian L on February 7, 2008 10:21 PM
Report this comment Before a considered reply, I would like to know the elements of Sharia Law that Williams' finds acceptable that are not already enshrined in British law?
The stoning (to death) of adulterous women?
The amputation of limbs for theft?
Sentence of death for Apostasy?
Forced Marriage? (both sexes suffer but more so women)
Doubltless Williams disapproves of such, and perhaps more, but he should realise (as I'm sure he must, hence my criticism of him as disshonest establishment leader) that appeasment of fundamentalism only leads demands
Posted by bert potts on February 7, 2008 10:21 PM
Report this comment Over My Dead Body.
This is a disgrace - we are a democracy not a theocracy. grrrrrr.
Posted by Mark H on February 7, 2008 10:21 PM
Report this comment If there is one single thing that exemplifies what is wrong with the Church of England it is this man. He is a buffoon. He is out of touch with the indigenous majority. He should go now before he does anymore damage.
Thank God for the Archbishop of York and Bishop of Rochester. Strange that the only 2 senior leaders of the Churhc who speak common sense are fom ethnic minorities. Williams resign now.
Posted by Gordo on February 7, 2008 10:21 PM
Report this comment I thought Rowan Williams was the leader of the established Christian church. clearly not. he should be sacked and replaced by someone who will speak up for Christians in a Christian kingdom.
Posted by Sir Bonser on February 7, 2008 10:20 PM
Report this comment Wow, what an idiot.
Posted by Lenny on February 7, 2008 10:20 PM
Report this comment Why is it seemingly unavoidable? What will happen if British Muslims are denied sharia law? What would they do? Who will enforce sharia law? Who will interpret it?
Posted by Peter G on February 7, 2008 10:19 PM
Report this comment This is the 21st century United Kingdom. Anyone who supports the introduction of 7th century Middle Eastern religious laws is clearly an utter moron; we should be wiping out the last vestiges of religious law in the UK, such as the absurd blasphemy law. The absolute last thing we need is a bunch of alien ones added.
And anyone who feels that their life isn't complete without Sharia law can bugger off to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, because the Briish people will reject that sort of ignorant barbarism.
Posted by Fergus Mason on February 7, 2008 10:17 PM
Report this comment Excuse me Sarah Munro, you do hear claims from other religions. The Jewish Beth Din legal system is semi-recognised by the British legal system. Know your facts before you peddle the shrieking, right-wing diatribe that has clearly brainwashed you.
Posted by J.Bro on February 7, 2008 10:17 PM
Report this comment What is it about the British that they want to give everyone what they want? You can't be all things to all men. Sharia law should be resisted at all cost. If any migrant can't relate to the British legal system then they shouldn't be there. Before you know where you are there will be separate legal systems for every different religion or sect because if there wasn't there would be complaints of discrimination. I wonder what would happen in Iran or Saudi Arabia if the expats there insisted on their own legal systems.
Posted by Kathleen Tregidgo on February 7, 2008 10:16 PM
Report this comment Is this stupid man trying to ignite a racial explosion
in this country with his sheer stupidity? It's not
often I am lost for words, but I can think of three
that sum up my feelings. SACK HIM NOW!
Posted by Annette on February 7, 2008 10:15 PM
Report this comment Given what his idiot has said, there is now NO reason whatsoever for any connection between the state and Christianity. Thwe purveyors of fairy storys now want us to embrace the nightmare of Islam.
Posted by John Kew on February 7, 2008 10:12 PM
Report this comment The man is a total fool, totally out of touch with reality. I thought as a Christian country he was supposed to be our leader. Some leader he has turned out to be. He should be booted out of office. Maybe he'd make a good Iman in Baghdad. Although he's probably try to make Iran a Christian country! What a total idiot this bearded braindead person is.
Posted by Michael Dudley on February 7, 2008 10:11 PM
Report this comment This man has lost it completely, the sooner he is dismissed,the better.
Posted by EX-BRAT on February 7, 2008 10:08 PM
Report this comment For goodness sake!
Why can't our most prominent religious leader stand up for what and who he purports to believe in? - And, if he can't do so resign or be removed from the post he abuses by his presence.
This is a christian country. We believe in Christ and affirm so regularly at church services. The Archbishop leads that affirmation. He should, therefore, be well grounded in Christ's teachings and that the Ten Commandments were sacrosanct to Him.
This country has been built on those commandments and because of the way they have formed our way of living people have, and still, do come here from the four corners of the world to live in a more civilised society to what they know.
We should be proud of our christianity and stand up for it not let it wither and die so others feel more at home. Or is it turning the other cheek in the face of adversity and threat?
The only reason Sharia Law seems to hold the answers to problems the commandments do not seem to address is that they have been watered down over the years to appease those believing in PC rather than God. We need to resurrect those Laws of ours. And start, once more to live by them, proudly.
What did Christ do when The Father's Temple was abused? He was angry. So angry he threw those responsible out. What, then, should we do> And, Mr. Archbishop, what should you do?
Posted by Lesley Giggins on February 7, 2008 10:06 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop’s comments are as bizarre as they are reckless. He’ll be suggesting next the Poles, Chinese, Turks etc have their own court system in England. This is Christian England and our legal system has been refined and developed over hundreds of years since the Magna Carta. Many, including the European Court of Human Rights, consider the punishments prescribed by Sharia (in Iran, Saudi, Nigeria, Afganistan etc) as being barbaric and cruel. Any adoption of Sharia law in the UK would be a step back into the stone age.
Posted by Michael on February 7, 2008 10:06 PM
Report this comment When the archbishop speaks, I naturally expect him to talk about Christianity, in particular within its context. He should know that in the Bible, laws similar to Sharia existed and then later was abolished.
With this, how can he co-sign Sharia?
Is he scared?
Oh my, In God I trust.
Posted by Veronica on February 7, 2008 10:06 PM
Report this comment God (Yahweh) said about Jesus (Yahushua) 'this is my only Son in whom I am well pleased.'
Followers of Allah say that Allah says he has no son (Written on the mosque on the Temple Mount).
Yahweh and Allah are therefore not the same God, as Yahweh does not contradict himself.
Rowan Williams purports to be a follower of God (Yahweh) and his son Jesus (Yahushua). If he is prepared to condone ceding legal jurisdiction to other 'gods' than Yahweh in the land he represents, and has a mandate to shepherd, he is not obeying the commandment to ‘not have other gods before me’, is a hypocritical representative of his faith, and should be unfrocked or resign.
Posted by e wright on February 7, 2008 9:57 PM
Report this comment I have just listened to the full interview on Radio 4. In between the usual Williams double-speak and nonsense passed off as intellectual comment there are some frightening views. He claims that his proposals would lead to greater cohesion. How would the incorporation of Sharia Law lead to more cohesion? Surely it would lead to the opposite (proven by the reaction to his speech). Either he is a complete fool or his intention is precisely the opposite of what he claims it is. In fact, he is playing religious politics without a single thought about race relations and community cohesion. He should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.
Posted by Craig on February 7, 2008 9:56 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop's remarks remind me of that infamous sketch in 'The Fast Show' when the trendy vicar suggests that one day, quite soon, the Church will welcome devil worshippers as part of their congregation...life imitating art! By the way, has anyone noticed his likeness to Dumbledore in Harry Potter ?
Posted by Rideronthestorm on February 7, 2008 9:55 PM
Report this comment It's interesting and encouraging to read these responses. This story is receiving a lot of coverage in the US, and there is no indication that there is any disagreement within Britain.
My impression is that the Brits are very concerned about placating Muslims and carefully avoiding any type of disagreement. The reponses here indicate that there is at least some willingness to stand up against the creation of an Islamic state within a state.
Posted by tim on February 7, 2008 9:54 PM
Report this comment Regarding the Archbishop of Canterbury’s statement on Sharia law, I go along with King Henry the second’s comment;(1170) "What a band of loathsome vipers I have nursed in my bosom who will let their lord be insulted by this low-born cleric!" Bring on four Knights I say.
Posted by Anthony Higham on February 7, 2008 9:51 PM
Report this comment I do not want Sharia law in the UK.
It is a dangerous path.
Williams would eventually be out of a job if his wishes came true.
Posted by roger on February 7, 2008 9:51 PM
Report this comment The laws we make in our country must have primacy of all other law. A basic requirement for anyone living in this country is the observance of our law. If someone wishes to reside here they must, at the very least be fluent in and confortable with our laws, culture and customs. If that is not possible for someone then, quite simply, they should leave and live somewhere where they feel at home!
Posted by Nicholas Kropacek on February 7, 2008 9:50 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop has at least started a debate. Now perhaps some of his flock are waking-up. However, slagging off the Rev. just shows what a rotten bunch we have become. Quick to anger and slow to listen.
I reserve judgment, because it is not my place to judge.
We have not heard the full context to the comments, in my ignorance perhaps some parts of sharia divorce procedings are acceptable and practical, they can't be much worse than the law courts. Yuk, messy business.
Jesus points out that adultery is caused when divorce takes place, and God intends a man and woman to remain together for ever. But compassion and love for a person is paramount.
So try cutting the Rev. some slack.
Posted by Alan Burt on February 7, 2008 9:50 PM
Report this comment So, if some people in Britain are unwilling or unable to sign up to our legal system because their god comes first, they should be allowed to have their own laws. Why not laws for socialists, capitalists, vegetarians, animal welfare groups? We all have beliefs, why should religious ones get preferential treatment?
Last month we had Nazir Ali telling us the way to stop Muslim fundamentalism and no-go areas was with a Christian revival. Now his boss says, no, the way to tackle segregation is to have more of it by allowing Muslims to have their own laws. Meanwhile in December Sentamu sent a warning to the Christian thug Mugabe by .....cutting up his dog collar on live TV in an English TV studio. Oh my, can you see Mugabe quaking!
Just as well for the CofE that Spitting Image is off the air, but then again the CofE is already a caricature of itself these days.
Religion, eh? You couldn't make it up
Posted by Old Smiddy on February 7, 2008 9:49 PM
Report this comment Had he been around 70 years ago he would, doubtless, be telling us that the adoption of Natzism in Britain was inevitable......
Posted by Chris on February 7, 2008 9:48 PM
Report this comment This country is killing itself - time to leave...
Posted by Fred on February 7, 2008 9:45 PM
Report this comment AND...Jews are allowed to have their own Law's in UK ??
Hypocrisy...?
Posted by jayil on February 7, 2008 9:45 PM
Report this comment He's rihgt in a way. As Dr Khan's post shows, muslims will follow sharia law anyway, whatever we say.
Coupled with simple demographics it is inevitable.
The only way to stop it would be an opression of a kind that is totally at odds with our culture.
It seems unlikely that the native British will ever find a leader with the cojones to make a stand for our culture.
Our tolerance has cost us our country folks.
Posted by AndrewG on February 7, 2008 9:44 PM
Report this comment My European history is a bit rusty, but doesn't this make Mr. Williams a bit of a reactionary? Wasn't there once a privileged aristocracy to whom the laws governing peasants didn't apply? I always thought a single law for everyone, regardless of social status, was the mark of an enlightened society. Silly me.
Posted by JB on February 7, 2008 9:42 PM
Report this comment Can it be avoided ? Of course it can, it just isn't acceptable to the indeginous people of Britain, this is supposed to be a Christian country. Mind you the bunch we have supposedly running the country would probably be quite happy to give the British another kick in the taters, they've been doing it now every day for eleven years.
It doesn't matter which way you look at it the only way for Britain to start moving in the right direction again is to leave the EU, get rid of all this human rights rubbish which has gone so far out its a danger, get rid of half of the Health and safety rubbish and make the law so that the MP's of Britain are subject to the exact same laws as we are,and if they are on the fiddle, be charged, into court and prison. The way things are going one day the balloon is going to pop.
Posted by Phil de Buquet on February 7, 2008 9:41 PM
Report this comment We should not support the introduction of Sharia law in the UK. My grandparents & Parent worked hard to integrate with other communities and learned to live in harmony with other culture and religious groups. This value was subsequently passed to us.
Muslim communities are already seen to be an ‘outsider’ and if Dr Rowan Williams support the notion to introduce Sharia Law in the UK, it will only create further segregation between communities and alienate Muslim communities further. Not to mention the fact that this will also make moderate Muslims lives difficult.
Though Dr Williams comment is seen as an encouragement for those who support introduction of Sharia Law, this will just open a floodgate to other religious group to introduce their own laws.
Why should Muslim receive preferential treatment? – those who wish to introduce Sharia law should consider going to a Muslim-run state, country governed by Sharia Law. UK is a multi-cultural society which has many culture and religion, and if people want to make a real difference in the country then they should encourage and develop to live their lives in a cohesive, tranquil and dignified manner within the British Law and Legislation. Religion is a private matter and as Londoner I feel that Sharia Law will only cause more problems for community relations. Government should not permit this discussion to go any further.
Posted by Sophia on February 7, 2008 9:40 PM
Report this comment Interesting that no one seems to be in favour of Sharia surely some one must think it is a good idea?
My view´? It is time for all religion to get out of our lives, everything was going so well until it reared its gastly head.
Posted by Richard Bale on February 7, 2008 9:39 PM
Report this comment It would be correct for the government to take their heads out of the sand and realize that they are not dealing with a religion which worships a God. These people and the Bible Thumpers in the United states worship a BOOK. This is not god worship. This is a for of Hitlerism; viz. using a book to ostensibly carry out the will of god, allah, whomever. Can't idiots like Williams think any more?
Posted by John Bridell on February 7, 2008 9:39 PM
Report this comment i thought we were a christian country, if we were in their country we would have to respect thier laws , as they are in ours they should respect ours, if they don't like it they can always go back
Posted by mark cunningham on February 7, 2008 9:38 PM
Report this comment NO to Sharia Law in England! This is a Christian country and always will be. Live by our Law,Respect the British way of life, or leave and find another country that would be accomodating to Islamofascism! This could only happen in soft-touch Britain- no other country would put-up with a foreign culture imposing itself onto the indigenous population. Kick the far-left Marxists out of our Government, and fast! Before it is too late. Rowan Williams must go! Along with Gordon Brown. Take a leaf out of Australia's immigration policy- look after your own people first! If you do'nt like our way of doing thing's, well- LEAVE!
Posted by Save Britain on February 7, 2008 9:37 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop is a buffoon! He is not only out of touch with the thoughts of the general public, but he is utterly and totally out of order with the church he is supposed to represent, notably the Church of ENGLAND! What will these laws mean to women? Are we to expect to be whipped if we are raped by no fault of our own other than being in the company of unrelated men? Are we to be stoned to death if our husband accuses us of infidelity? One has to ask where will Sharia'h Law end? If the government allows Sharia'h, which is effectively a religious law then why not Hindu laws or Sikh laws? It is basically wrong, if you want to live in a country that is not your own then you should agree to live by the laws that govern it. If you don't agree then leave. I have been to many Muslim countries and have respected their laws, I do not expect them to be bent because I am a white westerner from a 'liberal' land. I respect it because it is the law, their law, as they should do the same here. Born here or not it shouldn't make a difference, if I choose to become an adherent to some religion or other can I legitimately expect the country I reside in to bend the laws to my will? I may expect but I don't think it would happen. Islam is granted too much leeway, there are plenty of countries practising Sharia'h but people are choosing to leave them and come here. If we accept everyone else's way of life then ours will be lost, we are but a small island nation, it is not racist to want to keep what we have; it is common sense. The middle east will continue as it is, adherents in the main ideology staying and propagating a future generation, the ones who want a more liberal deal will come here as we are sadly an easy touch; welcoming, accommodating and not least, self sacrificing. Please wake up Britain and smell the coffee, it's not Starbucks, it's Turkish - yes, if we're lucky!
Posted by Ruthie on February 7, 2008 9:36 PM
Report this comment Well the biggest question one must ask is that does this land belong to the residents of the United Kingdom or the Christian Followers of the C of E.
If it does indeed belong to the residents then the british muslims should be considered as equals and the law should take them into account too.
On the other hand, if one is to believe that this land belongs to the followers in the C of E then i must ask, whose brillient idea was it to settle millions of jews in the heart of muslim arab land.
Posted by Ammar Ejaz on February 7, 2008 9:34 PM
Report this comment "Sharia Law has no place here. If people want to live under Sharia Law, they should move to a country which practices it. This is a free country..." -- Posted by R Hutton
Sir, not that i agree with Dr Williams... BUT mr Hutton, Isn't your sentence above an Oxymoron?. Read it carefully.
Posted by Mohammed on February 7, 2008 9:34 PM
Report this comment
And America is perceived as being religiously bonkers!!
Oh, thats right, because most here are Christian........and therefore insane.
He wouldn't last 5mins.
Posted by ExpatUK on February 7, 2008 9:34 PM
Report this comment What a load of dummies write on these blogs.
As someone who worked in the penal system,and seen the pathetic sentences handed down to murderers,and rapists etc from the repellant liberal judges via the repellant liberal governments of this country...I absolutely relish the idea of any sort of laws, that return this country to sanity,and safety- be that through islam or whatever.
The sort of people who write here are the sorts, that would be screaming for the death penalty, if one of their family were murdered.
The usual hypocrite British at their best.
Posted by Antony Graham on February 7, 2008 9:31 PM
Report this comment Th man should resign as he is a supportor of Islam. Islam is the antichrist, and his job is to promote Christianity and that includes the message of Jesus Christ to muslims. The Koran promotes the killing of infidels (Christians and Jews to you and me.) Resign Mr Williams or be pushed.
Posted by John Talmer on February 7, 2008 9:29 PM
Report this comment Radio 4 this week solicited 6-word stories. Mine is:
"Bearded nutter leads church. God weeps."
Posted by David Frost on February 7, 2008 9:28 PM
Report this comment Who will rid us of this incompetant priest! This is
England not downtown Islamabad. If Muslims in this
country don't like it then go to an islamic country
and live there!
Posted by Martyn Chapman on February 7, 2008 9:26 PM
Report this comment The second commandment says:
"You shall have no other gods before or besides Me."
Ex 20:3
Is this not the same God that Dr Williams purports to worship - if so is he not mindful of this commandment? Dr Williams seems to be putting forward a case for these other gods. Forgot the story that Allah is the same as the God that Christians worship - only a cursory examination of this proposal will show it to be a falsehood.
Elijah, on God's instructions called down fire from heaven which slew 400 prophets of Baal. I do believe that Dr Williams, had he been in Elijah's shoes, would have argued that perhaps the Children of Israel should have adopted some of Baal's practices rather than them being destroyed.
Posted by Theo on February 7, 2008 9:26 PM
Report this comment Bring in Sharia Law in Britain ...pah... we'd effectively be heading for civil war. The application of this in itself would lead to widespread civil disturbances & revenge killings honour killiings racial ethnic cleansing & wholesale redistributiion of populations=. There would be street demonstrations, Terrorism, barbaric acts associated with this so called true faith that would tear the fabric of this country apart.
We would see society disintegrate totally. This is exactly what they want...to destroy us.
In reality the enemy is already within & a fall back Policy of apeasement is in play here from Central Government through the C of E and it stabs right at the heart of our beloved nation.
Arch bishop You may have creatively opened a wound & sounded the deathknell of the Establishment in appearing to endorse such a move.
May the one true god have mercy on us all.
Posted by Rob B on February 7, 2008 9:23 PM
Report this comment Absoultely Dr Williams, why not, and while you're at it, I don't know, perhaps advocate violence towards women, renounce property rights for women and a return to the 18th century, yes please!
The Church of England must truely be in crisis - to even entertain such notions is unbelievable.
A message to the Church of England: your current, and I reiterate, "current" Archbishop has potentially alienated 50% of his fold.
Thankfully though, I won't have to bother The Queen, as her Majesty's Government provide the approriate checks and balances in this good year, of 2008!
Posted by F S Campbell on February 7, 2008 9:22 PM
Report this comment Maybe in 50 years the country will be called The Islamic Republic of Great Britain.
Posted by John on February 7, 2008 9:19 PM
Report this comment If it makes People of the muslim faith happier to live by "sharia" then let them do so, just as long as they don't expect other people of other belief systems and other faiths to do so as well. If was down to me religion would be completely outlawed, to much blood spilt over fables and heresay.
Posted by Shaun Boldison on February 7, 2008 9:19 PM
Report this comment This is absolutely rubbish idea. I am a hindu and I have no complain about English legal system, it is infact one of the best law system in the world. Imposing sharia law in uk would be murder to english law. Ask Saudi Arabia to built a church or temple or gurudwara in their country... If people cnt bear the present law, then they are always welcomed by their originial muslim country !
Posted by British Indian on February 7, 2008 9:18 PM
Report this comment Should the Muslims be able to have Sharia Law in this country? This country seems so insecure in it's own identity, that like an insecure schoolboy it seems to want to please anyone who comes its way. For this reason, the Archbishop is right, it is inevitable. But if people don't like the laws of this country they know where the door is whatever belief system they hold. Let's remember that we have a history and we shouldn't give it up out of fear for a small minority.
Posted by Chris Livesey on February 7, 2008 9:18 PM
Report this comment If he were a baptist, Mormon, Jew, Hindu or Rastafarian nobody would have bothered to print this rubbish.
Time to remove ALL religions from having any influence on the nations laws. We are rational beings who should make our laws rationally without the aid of shamans & witch doctors.
Posted by Simple Sailor on February 7, 2008 9:17 PM
Report this comment I think that Dr Rowan Williams raises some interesting points for debate. He certainly seems to have exposed some deeply held prejudices that fester away in the corridors of power of this country.
I wonder how many people reading the shock horror reporting of Dr Williams comments even know what the Shariah line on divorce is or were aware that some major High Street banks now offer banking services that are Shariah compliant. Time for many people to open up their eyes to the real Britain that we live in and learn to embrace it rather than some romanticised version of pre war Britain with red phone boxes and chaps bowling googlies at each other instead of googling on the net.
What are British values anyway and do we all have a say in what they are? Are they the values of a predominantly white British ruling class elite or rather of all the people of this country including Eastern European people, fundamentalist Muslims and orthodox Jews, Sikhs and many other groups?
Why shouldn't the establishment accommodate the values of those who are part of Britain. Why shouldn't we accommodate all parts of our diverse society as we have done in the past? Why shouldn't all members of society and their deeply held beliefs and customs be taken into account within our laws as a democratic multi-cultural modern European country? Are we really that dumb that our legislators can't manage it? Surely they must be changed in order to comply with human rights legislation in any case or did we forget we signed up to that one?
Well done Dr Williams for being brave enough to raise the issue and rattle a few dead branches. Quite dissappointing that again the PM appears to have decided to play it safe and toe the US line. Now what kind of defence of British values is that?
Posted by David Raho on February 7, 2008 9:16 PM
Report this comment Well all I can say is if those in charge actualy want the vast majority of the population of this once great country to vote BNP they're going the right way about it!
Posted by MR on February 7, 2008 9:15 PM
Report this comment In all seriousness, I can see the makings of civil riots, and complete social breakdown coming.
What nuLab might call 'enrichment'.
Posted by Paul Phear on February 7, 2008 9:15 PM
Report this comment When truly Born again Christians hear the statements made by Dr Rowan we are confident we are in the last days. John in his epistles warned us that such people would be in our midst. The commandment of Jesus to His disciples was to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Dr Rowan would do well to be obedient to this calling and give his testimony of Salvation if he has one.If not he has no right to grace any of the pulpits in our land and the leaders in the Church of England have to take him to task on these issues and put a Born again leader in his place.
Posted by Pastor David Rutter, Hayle Cornwall on February 7, 2008 9:14 PM
Report this comment I also find it pretty sad that people of this country is getting so worked up about Islam. You clearly do not understand Islam you go on what the media or any other critic says.
Before September 11th nothing like this existed you ever wondered how all of a sudden you got terrorist and muslims are a danger or is it all just a misconception?
Their is no need to get excited and defensive when you read these things in media.
Posted by A Hasan on February 7, 2008 9:14 PM
Report this comment No, of course not - 'sharia law' is certainly incompatible with English law, and if any attempt were made to incorporate it, we should sooner or later find ourselves subject to hateful and barbaric regulations.
As I may have said before, on another matter, Rowan Williams is a woolly-minded fool, quite unsuited to be our Archbishop. Whatever may be going on in his head, he is incapable of clear speech, setting out Christian guidance on morality, theology or anything else.
Posted by Priscus on February 7, 2008 9:11 PM
Report this comment I am appalled.The Archbishop of Canterbury should be upholding British Law that has been founded on Christian princilples. Everyone who lives in Britain of whatever race or religion should abide by British Law as we would have to abide by the law of another country should we have to live abroad.Imagine trying to change the law to our benefit in Saudi Arabia or Iran. The Archbishop should resign over his appaling statement.
Posted by Alison Goodyear on February 7, 2008 9:11 PM
Report this comment Lets get one thing straight hes stirring up things. Being a practising muslim you should know that it is in Islam that one must also follow the law of country.
Another stunt to bring down muslims. Nothing new.
Posted by A Hasan on February 7, 2008 9:11 PM
Report this comment Oh come on, everyone, give the guy a break. He's totally irrelevant and if he didn't come out with these hysterical statements, nobody would know he even exists.
As the very first comment avers: "[I]n Saudi Arabia, they imprison you for owning a bible or talking to a woman in public. This is the reality of sharia law in practice," to which--living in an Arab country--I can readily attest.
Just ignore this kook... - or laugh at him. Who takes him with any degree of seriousness??
Posted by Michael Steiner on February 7, 2008 9:10 PM
Report this comment link
The link is to an article on BBC dated November 28, 2006. The BBC has been lobying for sharia for a long time. They now the Archbishop on their side. I understand what he means when he says it's "unavoidable". I feel the same way. The BBC and its supporters will eventually get their way.
Posted by Johannes on February 7, 2008 9:10 PM
Report this comment Oh I forgot can one impeach an Archbishop?
Posted by Sam on February 7, 2008 9:08 PM
Report this comment
The British government has had to spend millions of pounds giving police protection to Mr Rushdie because he turned away from Islam and was, as a result, threatened with death because of sharia law.
Would the Archbishop of Canterbury be threatened with death under sharia law for renouncing his religion - which he seems to have done? And how much money would the poor old taxpayer have to cough up to protect him?
Posted by René Descartes on February 7, 2008 9:08 PM
Report this comment I am so sorry about this country. Not because of any thing but because of what I have read here. Unfortunately, you writings guys are full of hatred, ignorance and disrespect of a man who is suggesting something that he thinks is useful for the country is peaceful future. If somebody, has suggested to open a casino, open a brothel selling Innocent poor women to you, YOU would differently applauded him wouldn’t you, although this is against Christianity.
If somebody, has said something bad about Islam you would say its freedom of speech, but if somebody, seeing the wisdom and Justice of Islam has said that there is something good in it, you will savage him as you did in your comments here. Aren’t you contradicting yourselves, aren’t you having a double standard way of dealing with things.
What make matters worse; is that I challenge any and all of you to have read about Islam more than what you have written about it.
TO YOU ALL, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT CHRISTIANS AND JEWS AND ALL OTHER FAITHS ARE ENJOYING ALL THEIR RIGHTS UNDER SHARIA LAW IN ALL TIMES OF ISLAMIC POWER AND WEAKNESS OF ITS STATES. MOREOVER, JEWISH PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED PRESQUTED AND SLAIED OR FORCED TO CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY IN EUOROPE DID ONLY ESCAPE WHEN THEY REACHED MUSLIM LANDS
####### ADVICE TO YOU *** WHOLEHEARTEDLY, IF YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO BE TOLERANT CONVIVIAL READ THE QURAN LEARN ISLAM AND YOU WILL BE.
LAWYER FOR JUSTICE EVERYWHERE.
Posted by king10@maktoob.com on February 7, 2008 9:08 PM
Report this comment Well my religion requires that men and women be equal. And my religion says that girl children may be not be cut up so that they will be chaste. And my religion does not teach that uncovered women are dirty or that they are worth less than a man.Can I have mine recognized please? Ah but it is in British and EU law.
Our laws must trump any religious law , and anyone having large families should only get child benefit for the first two.
Posted by Sam on February 7, 2008 9:08 PM
Report this comment Thanks, Dr Williams. You have helped me make up my mind. I will be voting BNP next time.
Posted by Had Ennuff on February 7, 2008 9:07 PM
Report this comment What a disgrace. This man has no right to be head of an ENGLISH church. It would seem that the only way this man can remain in the spot light is to make absurd statements. Thus giving him 'power'. When in fact the man is a weak feeble illusionist. It's about time leaders of churches were elected by the people who worship in them. And not by an eletist group who elect those who would further their place. Rather like so many other groups including prime ministers etc'. I am thrilled to be leaving this country for good soon. Like so many others we have had more than we can take. We left the church and so called religion years ago.
Posted by Avril B Simpson on February 7, 2008 9:07 PM
Report this comment It sure is unavoidable with dickheads like this stirring up an already inflammable situation. This heretic should be burnt at the stake!
Posted by Bubbles de Vere on February 7, 2008 9:07 PM
Report this comment what a load of rubbish this country is turning in to,
it seems the government would hear every one else in the world that cares to come here!
( it would be nice to have a english pm as well )and not a thing from people born and bred here.
do the uk a favour and stop selling out, or you wont have a country left.
or blood on your hands if you are all left unchecked!
Posted by bob thorpe on February 7, 2008 9:04 PM
Report this comment The very idea that Europe incorporate aspects of the primitive village superstitions which comprise the Islamic faith into its legal constitution is utterly, absolutely abhorrent. Far from continually bending over backwards to extend our "tolerance" ever further (consider what thanks we have gotten for _that_!), now is the time for rational people to take an active and uncompromising stand against any and every strain of that pernicious virus of irrationality we call "religion". Considering the endless trail of rack and ruin that religion continues to leave across the globe, the notion that one is not only obliged to "respect" people's medieval superstitions but even to carve out spaces in which they might thrive ought to bring shame upon anyone who espouses it. Any intelligent, remotely rational person must see clearly that religion and its legal codes belongs to the infancy of our species. Britain, as humanity in general, must either grow up and build upon the legacy of the Enlightnment, or perish at the hands of those whose beliefs ought never have made it beyond the 19th century. No-one should be discriminated against on the basis of their race or origin or gender; but to discriminate between people on the basis of their beliefs is nothing more than rational common sense. As anyone must recognise who has even a passing familiarity with the actual contents of the Qu'ran, the Islamic faith comprises a supremely irrational and pernicious set of primitive dogmas. Quite simply, and contra the bare-faced mendacicity of all those who would have us believe that Islam is essentially a "peace-loving" religion which wicked "fundamentalists" have perverted for political ends, we must squarely face the fact that any Muslim who truly believes in the Qu'ran _ipso facto_ believes not only that murdering non-Muslims is not a crime (accordeing to the Qu'ran, it is only a crime to kill another "believer"), but that anyone who carries out such an act has thereby guaranteed for him or herself an eternal place in heaven. Thus, it is quite literally the case that the _only_ moral grounds on which any true Muslim believer could have objected to the terrorist attacks on the London Underground would be that they might have endangered the lives of other Muslims. For any rational person to buy into the idea that we ought to so much as _tolerate_ such a "faith" in our country ought to be regarded as totally abhorrent.
Posted by Martin on February 7, 2008 9:02 PM
Report this comment Would the highly rewarded idiot currently living in Lambeth Palace (who’s never done a day’s work in his life) please let me know which cities/areas are to go Sharia first – will they chosen Alphabetically or by the amount of Moslems living in the place. I’d just like to know how much time I have before I sack my staff, close my business down and emigrate.
HB Feltham.
Posted by Harley Buckner on February 7, 2008 9:00 PM
Report this comment No
Posted by Edd on February 7, 2008 8:58 PM
Report this comment A country building its own funeral pyre. Sound familiar.
Posted by Tony on February 7, 2008 8:57 PM
Report this comment
Reading these comments makes me wonder if the government and the church are trying to see how far they can go before there is a rebellion in England.
The Labour government have given more democratic rights to every part of Britain except England and has even managed to get away with imposing the European Constitution upon a people to whom they promised a referendum; they have said that Moslems with multiple wives should receive multiple state benefits - and still the pusillanimous English have not rebelled.
Now the bizarre archbishop wants sharia law.
If the English accept this last insult without rebelling then they are completely finished as a people and completely finished as a civilised nation.
Posted by Richard Tracey on February 7, 2008 8:57 PM
Report this comment How obvious to those who are Born again and filled with the Holy Ghost that these are the last days when so- called leaders of the Church of England promote that which is not of God.For the Church to move on in the Lord it has to take to task those who have opinions that do not adhere to sound doctrine.Jesus commanded His disciples to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, if Dr Rowan is not obedient to that calling then he should no longer step into any pulpit in this land. He may be steeped in religious theology but religious theology does not relate to having a living relationship with God through Christ Jesus our Lord. It would do well for Dr Rowan to give his testimony of Salvation (if he has one) to this nation so that all may be encouraged.
Posted by Pastor David Rutter on February 7, 2008 8:54 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams should resign immediately. All Muslims living in this Country should live by the democratic laws of this land. If they do not wish to do so they should move to a Country which supports their beliefs.
Posted by John S on February 7, 2008 8:53 PM
Report this comment Wake up Britain - it's already here!
Visit one of the many sharia courts in West Yorks, Lancs etc. Singing minarets in Oxford. Who said immigrants could just bring their own laws and way of life over here?
Posted by CaliphateofWestYorks on February 7, 2008 8:51 PM
Report this comment Sharia law,unfettered immigration,letting foreign criminals stay in Britain,benefits for multiple wives,are these examples of subversion by stealth?
Parliament hasn't done anything to stop these things,some proposals even come from the bureaucracy(or worse do not enforce laws).Does this mean that the subversives have already penetrated our democratic institutions and civil service or the C of E?
If this sounds a bit far fetched why doesn't the security service(MI5)no longer investigate subversion and only allocates 0.5% of its budget to 'emerging or other threats'.
Have a look at MI5's website.
Posted by concerned ex pat on February 7, 2008 8:51 PM
Report this comment Unbelievable. Does this man deserve to be head of the Church of England? Is he so other-wordly that he has completely lost touch with reality? Our country and way of life are under stress as never before, and stupid comments like this only serve to feed the extremists in both camps. How the BNP must be loving it. Calls to prayer in Oxford, benefit payments to harems, and now the Archbishop calls for Sharia law. WELL DONE DR WILLIAMS! You have really stoked up the fire.
Posted by Peter Clubbe on February 7, 2008 8:51 PM
Report this comment john sentamu and michael nazir-ali now please.
Posted by alexis on February 7, 2008 8:48 PM
Report this comment "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
For me this verse from Matthew 22:21 captures what I think the Archbishop of Canterbury was alluding to today in his ill advised comments on Sharia Law.
To be clear - I don't support words which might give sustenance to our country's enemies but I think we need to stand up and tell our government that enough is enough. In its recent social legislation and restrictions on non-violent freedom of speech New Labour has sought to impose its totalitarian and unfree world view on the rest of the country. It has sought to take over the territory which rightly belongs to our conscience, or to put it in the words of St Matthew, to God.
In such circumstances, English law becomes something which many of a religious persuasion (not just Muslims but also those of other Abrahamic faiths) are likely to find it increasingly difficult to tolerate. The problem is that the government and (given the way the government likes to operate through legislation) English law is now trying to do to much and is restricting the freedoms for which our ancestors stood - back to the time of the Magna Carta and beyond.
The answer is not special treatment under the law for Muslims but less law and regulation so that those of a religious persuasion are not forced out of the public square by the atheist nihilists at the heart of the New Labour project. We need to entrench individual freedom of speech and thought in our constitution - not start running parallel legal systems to further divide our fractured nation.
Posted by William Mason (Dip Theol Oxon) on February 7, 2008 8:47 PM
Report this comment Told you so
Posted by The ghost of Enoch Powell on February 7, 2008 8:47 PM
Report this comment As a gay male catholic with a Spanish partner I never in my life imagined I would be writng a letter of protest to the Arch Bishop of Canterbury. He has done mor eharm for race relatons wth his comments than anything the BNP could have done.
Get on his webste and do the same
Posted by david Flanaghan on February 7, 2008 8:47 PM
Report this comment Williams has betrayed the millions of Christians who have to endure Sharia law in places such as Nigeria. He undermines Christianity in England & Wales and encorages moslem fundamentalism. He does not seem to have the intellectual capacity to realise that Islam cannot be alienated because it is already profoundly alien to Europe in particular and Christendom in general. The Church of England does not deserve to be led by a man with such a flacid view of Christianity. He makes a fool of himself and the Church. He should resign or be deposed and be replaced by a Christian.
Posted by carlos on February 7, 2008 8:47 PM
Report this comment Williams has betrayed the millions of Christians who have to endure Sharia law in places such as Nigeria. He undermines Christianity in England & Wales and encorages moslem fundamentalism. He does not seem to have the intellectual capacity to realise that Islam cannot be alienated because it is already profoundly alien to Europe in particular and Christendom in general. The Church of England does not deserve to be led by a man with such a flacid view of Christianity. He makes a fool of himself and the Church. He should resign or be deposed and be replaced by a Christian.
Posted by carlos on February 7, 2008 8:47 PM
Report this comment Fascinating comments from people who all seem to have the same views. Then why don't politicans have the guts to stand up and say what we all think, instead of appeasing people for votes. Bring back some one like Winston Churchill. Or will some one please start an ENGLISH national party to represent all of us that seem to want similar things,our ENGLISH way of life preserved. Here's to patriotism. You have unleashed a pandora's box Mr Williams and you won't be able to fit the lid back on this one
Posted by Denise Britton on February 7, 2008 8:41 PM
Report this comment Luke 13. The Lord speaks of the herb mustard that grows into an unatural tree. It is inhabited by birds of the air (satanic beings)
That is what the established church has become post constantine.
Thanks for the demonstration Arch Bishop.
Posted by ivor manning on February 7, 2008 8:41 PM
Report this comment If he truly believes that tripe then he's an idiot. No wonder the Anglican church is imploding.
Posted by Barry Ponsford on February 7, 2008 8:38 PM
Report this comment from what I have seen, lots of you guys are not civlised, not tolerant, and not educated about Islam at all.
you can't be a judge if you no nothing,
thanks for reading this, but you should understand it.
Khaled
Posted by inaspain1980@yahoo.com on February 7, 2008 8:37 PM
Report this comment Hold on a minute! There is a deal of attraction to this proposal. Under Shariah law, murderers, rapists and those committing robbery with violence are normally executed. Sneak thieves who commit opportunistic crime have their hands cut off. Such a law would mean a significant improvement in the daily lives of those currently unfortunate to have to negotiate inner city areas. Bring it on!
Posted by Roy G on February 7, 2008 8:37 PM
Report this comment the Archbishop should either shave and repent or go!
Posted by jane on February 7, 2008 8:36 PM
Report this comment As others may have noted, India - a secular, multi-cultural society - recognises the rights of certain minorities to their own legal practices; distinct legal provisions also exist for aboriginal peoples in Canada. In the case of India, this recognition also extends to aspects of Sharia law for the very large Muslim minority.
Posted by henry laycock on February 7, 2008 8:36 PM
Report this comment As it is now beyond doubt that Jesus was at the most a prophet,and certainly a political agitator amongst the Jews,and was married to Mary Magdalene and had a family,the descendants of whom live this day in Paris (thanks to the authors of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and "The Tomb of God" proving this to us) then Williams is a dangerous joke and what he says is irrelevant.
The Roman Catholic Church carries on obliviously because they have to to keep the "con" going.
So there is little point in reacting to William's rant re Shariah Law.
We had to partition India because the Muslims were a menace and so we gave them two Pakistans - and they are still a menace to this day.
You never get trouble with Indians - either Sikhs or Hindus - Muslims are like Catholics - slaves of religious overlords who keep them under subjugation through fear and opression - hence this Shariah law bilge.
In Catholic times it was called "The Inquisition" and if the Muslims were clever and intelligent they would see through the bilge and think for themselves and we wouldn't have lunatics like Williams committing acts of verbal violence likely to cause more violence and racial and religious incitement.
The man should get a life,get a haircut and join the real world.
Posted by alan maddox on February 7, 2008 8:35 PM
Report this comment
The Queen is the Head of the Church of England: she should sack this absurd, madman immediately.
One of my ancestors, Sir William de Tasty, was one of the four knights who responded to Henry II's exclamation: 'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?' and went to Canterbury to slay Thomas a Beckett.
There are times when my wicked ancestor's blood begins to boil .......
Posted by Rastus C. Tastey on February 7, 2008 8:34 PM
Report this comment As a member of the Anglican church here in
America I can tell you that this "man" has lost what
little respect he had left. It seems as if he wants to
create a schism. Sheer madness!
Posted by Karl on February 7, 2008 8:33 PM
Report this comment When Dr. Williams is allowed into Saudi Arabia or Iran, carrying a Bible, and when women are no longer stoned for adultery - i.e. being raped - then perhaps, just perhaps, think about talking about having Sharia law in the UK. Until then Dr. Williams, any other like-minded clerics (including the mosque-supporting Canon in Oxford) should either work towards getting more people into Church of England services or quietly leave the C of E, and offer their services to whichever mosque that will have them.
The rest of us can get on with our own lives, with our own Church, and with our own system of law.
Posted by CNL on February 7, 2008 8:31 PM
Report this comment This whole thing is ridiculous. The archbishop is
talking about OPTIONAL use of sharia law in
relatively minor legal matters. He isn't talking
about stoning women for commiting adultery or
chopping off the hands of shoplifters. Sharia law
would never override our rights and would never
apply to non muslims. The archbishop's only
mistake was allowing his words to be
misinterpreted by the media, which was probably
inevitable anyway.
Posted by A Brown on February 7, 2008 8:29 PM
Report this comment Here we go,it had to happen.The traitors who run this country were warned over and over again what would take place. Open borders and look what has happened. Any normal person with an ounce of common sense could see what was going to happen. In many towns and cities the majority of the population are foreign so of course they will want their own laws ,police force ,mosques etc.The government should resign and we need a strong leader to take this once great nation forward again but I fear it is to late.
Posted by john Essex England on February 7, 2008 8:28 PM
Report this comment Congratulations, Archbishop. You have put another nail in the coffin of the Anglican Church.
When what remains of your dwindling the flock has deserted to the Catholic Church or to the ranks of the secularists and you have lost your mitre (having already lost your mind)I will give you a cushy job in my garden as a gnome in Druid's dress ("suits you, sir". At least that way you'll keep your foolish mouth shut.
Posted by Louise on February 7, 2008 8:28 PM
Report this comment As a practicing rasta I am hoping that soon myself and fellow brethren will also be able to opt in and out of the British laws that suit us. Why should I be punished for smoking a big spliff and meditating to Jah almighty.
Posted by JahBlessed on February 7, 2008 8:27 PM
Report this comment
This is the one person in the country who is supposed to be bringing the truth about Jesus Christ and God's salvation to those who don't know Him. And instead Dr. Williams spends his time frivolously trying to accommodate an alien and misguided philosophy, one that has produced very little real progress over many centuries.
It's so indicative of the reasons our native, liberal church is losing so many of its congregation to more vital and Spirit-lead ones.
Posted by Chris Hayes on February 7, 2008 8:26 PM
Report this comment truely pathetic, yet another stupid tick boxer who has floated to the surface during the last 10 years. politicians, BBC, law and criminal justice system, police now church. What must the people who stood alone in 1940 against Hitler - who really made this country great - feel about this shamefull lot
Posted by chris NW5 on February 7, 2008 8:25 PM
Report this comment Absolute rubbish. Do we hear anything from the millions of chinese, hindus, sikhs, shinto, jews or other religions about imposing their laws? No. Its time to tell the muslims they are a minority - mostly a law abiding minority but for the rest, please leave and go to nigeria or saudi where you will feel much more at home without exploiting the good nature of people who came here to get away from extremists.
Posted by sarah munro on February 7, 2008 8:25 PM
Report this comment I happened to read the remarks of the Archbisop of Canterbury on Sharia Law in Britain at the same time as I read that a certain Muslim cleric had been denied a visa to visit this country because of his subversive views. It seems we may have more to worry about from the ill-considered views of our own clerics never mind those from overseas.
Posted by Michael Buchanan-Jones on February 7, 2008 8:24 PM
Report this comment This is pathetic. The West is committing suicide
and the majority of the population doesn't seem to
care..
Posted by Laurent on February 7, 2008 8:23 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams is completely barking hatstand - has he forgotten that England has its own church?! If it comes to the muslims wanting to live under Sharia law that badly, they can always go somewhere where it already exists and leave behind the Christian life that they so decry. I don't suppose they will be bringing in Christian values in Iran in the near future, will they?
Posted by Daisy Chain on February 7, 2008 8:22 PM
Report this comment its time to become a fully secular society. All faith schools should be shut down, every person in britain should be dealt with under British la no ifs no buts, if you dont like that ....bugger off
Posted by gilbo on February 7, 2008 8:19 PM
Report this comment There can only be one law in this country as constituted in the Common Law before which all are equal regardless as to race, colour or creed.
Does the Archbishop wish to introduce apartheid? Or is he just trying to bring back Benefit of Clergy by the back-door?
Posted by stanilic on February 7, 2008 8:19 PM
Report this comment Well at least he won't get death threats like his colleague who had the nerve to stand up against islam......
Posted by Joe, Manchester on February 7, 2008 8:18 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop is forgetting what Jesus Himself had to say:
"And knowing their thoughts, He said to them, Any kingdom that is divided against itself is being brought to desolation and laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will last or continue to stand."
Matt 12:25
and
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve God and mammon"
Matt 6:24
Is it not time Dr Williams chose who he is serving: God or Baal.
Posted by Theo on February 7, 2008 8:17 PM
Report this comment So tell me fair and law abiding British folks, jewish law for jewish people has been in this country for over 100 years.
Is this ok with you?
Posted by Trialblazer on February 7, 2008 8:15 PM
Report this comment what next!!! I am fed up with having to change british way of life just to accomadate forgein nationals.
British people who move to other countries respect their laws, why should we bend over backwards to change/ amend ours, if the law doesn't suit DON'T LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.
Posted by fed up british citizen on February 7, 2008 8:15 PM
Report this comment Whatever mechanism exists for sacking an Archbishop of Canterbury should be employed at once. Williams appears not to know that the job of a Christian leader is to tend his flock and to win souls for Christ. Yes Archbishop, you dummy, that means strengthening Christians in their faith, standing up for Christian truth and teachings and CONVERTING people TO CHRISTIANITY. This necessarily means pointing out, as courteously as possible (though not fudging the issues), where Christianity is right and other religions are in error - not pandaring to them and fostering the growth of error and falsehood as you are so keen to do.
Posted by Cambridge Christian on February 7, 2008 8:14 PM
Report this comment Don't be so hasty to dismiss RW musing outloud the possibility of Sharia Law when it was seriously considered but not adopted in the Province of Ontario, Canada. Catholic and Jewish based faith groups had always been allowed to have faith based tribunals to settle family law matters such as divorce and they received little attention until Muslim leaders demanded the same rights in 2005. Officials had to decide whether to exclude one religion, or whether to dispense with the religious family courts altogether.The Province's premier, Dalton McGinty, then decided that he would pull the plug on ALL faith based arbitration in deciding matters of family law saying that such courts:"threaten our common ground," and that legislation would be quickly introduced to outlaw them in Ontario. Religious arbitration has no place within the legal/ justice systems of either of our countries. I wouldn't "fire" the Archbishop, but I would tell him to keep such inflammatory opinings to himelf and focus on matters that affect the C of E only.
Posted by Claire from Toronto on February 7, 2008 8:11 PM
Report this comment Of course it will. So long as we have our lilly-livered, PC, politicians more interested in themselves than our country and while the uneducated Brits don't have the sense to vote the lot out it is utterly inevitable. The only thing to be discussed is the time-frame. I'm leaving!
Posted by Kylena on February 7, 2008 8:09 PM
Report this comment Now that Gordon has given up on chosing the Archbishop of Canterbury,doesn't this leave the Queen as head of the C of E?.
If so perhaps she should consider giving Dr.Williams the flick.
The government should also consider taking away all the tax concessions away from all religions(except for charity work)since they appear to use this privilige to only enrich themselves.
Posted by mike reading on February 7, 2008 8:07 PM
Report this comment Just watched a Muslim defending the idea on C4 news. His first words were "I as a Muslim believe that..."
Not "I as a British citizen believe that..."
C'mon church, and government, and all you `cohesive society'-ers, - wake up!
Posted by Paul on February 7, 2008 8:07 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop told the BBC what they wanted to hear. This is not the first time the BBC has pushed for a debate about sharia and it won't be the last. Why are people surprised all of a sudden that the Archbishop says maybe it's not such a bad idea?
Posted by Johannes on February 7, 2008 8:03 PM
Report this comment New Labour has undermined Christian values in Britain for more than a decade. If Islam fills the vacuum, should we be surprised? Dr. Williams is daring to say what spinless Labour politicians dare not.
Posted by RB on February 7, 2008 8:03 PM
Report this comment "Law", as most self-respecting citizens of a democracy should expect it to be, is a legislative process, brought about by objective debate. The processes of enforcing "law" in a democracy involve evidence, the right to a defence, and the right, where applicable, to a fair trial. "Law" as this idiot and the rest of his zealot peers, irrespective of their religion see it, is a process decided entirely on the basis of what some 'prophets' wrote down (again, irrespective of the particular religion), upon receiving visionary experiences brought about, most probably, as a result of being stoned on drugs. The enforcment of this "law" has nothing to do with democracy, objectivity, or the rights of the individual in this so-called advanced state of our civilisation and intellectual development. It is merely a pandering, a hark-back to a time when the religious classes enjoyed honoured status, and got to kill lots of heathens and infidels without a voice being spoken against them. So OF COURSE they ALL want us to return to this level of ineptitude, because they get to have lots of power again, the kind of power nobody dare question for fear of being a victim of their so-called "law". Frankly, this man, and all like him, regardless of what book they got brainwashed on as kids, should never again be allowed into any position of power whatsoever. This is a secular, democratic society, and long may it remain that way.
Posted by Picko on February 7, 2008 8:02 PM
Report this comment What does the Archbishop of York have to say on this? He speaks more sense than the Wierdy-beardy Druid.
Posted by S.Petersen on February 7, 2008 7:59 PM
Report this comment I would take up arms against the government should they ever think of implementing Sharia law to this country. Its obvious the Islamification of the UK has reached a tipping point, its becoming clear that we shall soon see large scale civil strife in this country split along religious lines.
Posted by Robert on February 7, 2008 7:59 PM
Report this comment This foolish man has caused nothing but controversy since becoming Archbship.
He could cause more problems between between Christian and Muslim than anyone else on earth.
It is time that fools like this and those in Government looked after the English Christian instead of grovelling to the Muslim as much as they seem to.
It would indicate that this fool has little or no idea of Sharia Law and its consequences.
Posted by Pip Waller on February 7, 2008 7:59 PM
Report this comment If the devil sought to destroy England and the Church of England, could he have a better disciple than the Archbishop? Either that, or the Archbishop is one brick short of a full load. What happens when a crime under the civil law is not a crime under Sharia law (suicide bombing perhaps, or "honour" killing)? Two women are currently waiting to be stoned to death in Iran, the penalty under sharia law for talking to a stranger. Is that what the stupid bishop wants to bring to England? Of course you will hear nothing from Gordon Brown who seeks muslim votes at the next election. Do 50 million people have to emigrate to accommodate the muslims?
Posted by Tony G on February 7, 2008 7:52 PM
Report this comment I am intrigued as to where any attempt to accommodate Sharia law and polygamy might dovetail with equal rights. Will it be long before some woman seeks equality,and with her four husbands each having four wives etc ad infinitum we will have abolished marriage. Or do we simply accept that some are more equal than others? Where lies community cohesion there?
Posted by martin sewell on February 7, 2008 7:52 PM
Report this comment Williams with his sycophantic crawling to his Muslim superiors has done us a great service. He has shown how the civilised norms of this great country have been eroded and diluted by his liberal left stance and that of his cohorts.
His Anglican Church is witnessing plumeting membership and attendance. His total lack of morality is part of the cause.
Some years ago someone said 'who will rid me of this turbulent priest?' Maybe that time has once again come.
But with regard to the question. Sharia law in Britain is obviously NOT unavoidable.
If Williams had an ounce of common sense he would demand of the Muslim nations to allow Christianity the same facilities as they are afforded here in Britain and if they are unable to do this they should be immediately banned from ANY activities within Britain. The very same attitudes visited by them upon Christianity in their countries should be applied to them here. Either FULL reciprocity of TOTAL banning here as it is in their countries.
I am sure that Muslims in Britain will fully accept the fairness of the quid pro quo and leave if they are not prepared to give up their religions!
Posted by GrahamB on February 7, 2008 7:51 PM
Report this comment How can Rowan Williams say this, and yet like so many left-leaning do-gooders exhort the population to cohesiveness and tolerance. British law evolved to be applicable to all citizens. If his wife committed adultery, would the archbishop really approve that she were publicly stoned.
Posted by Stephen Sole on February 7, 2008 7:49 PM
Report this comment We do not want Sharia law in the UK. If Muslims
want it- they can feel free to go to any Muslim
country to live under these conditions.
Posted by no sharia law on February 7, 2008 7:49 PM
Report this comment If I moved to another country to live I would expect to live under that countries laws and to speak that countries language. I would NOT try to make the new country exactly the same as the one I chose not to live in.
If you want an Islamic life under Sharia law then move to an Islamic country and live there. If it's that great then why are they moving here in their droves?
Posted by Amanda Regan on February 7, 2008 7:47 PM
Report this comment This man is a fool, has he not considered the troops we have in Afghanistan, right this very moment risking their lives trying to protect the local people from the medieval lunacy of sharia laws once inflicted on them by the bloodthirsty maniacs the Taliban. Williams denigrates muslim women by stating this, he has no right to speak on behalf of the population of this nation he is totally out of order. If they have any common sense at all, people will be leaving the church of England in droves.
Posted by Barb Spears on February 7, 2008 7:46 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams will go down in history as one of the major influences in the UK's current race to the bottom. America has a far better multicultural attitude....your an American first and whatever your religion second.
First it’ll be the muslims wanting special laws, then the Buddhists, then the Sikhs etc etc etc......if that’s the case then the Jedi’s should also have their religious beliefs incorporated into law.....including the ancient Jedi tradition of not paying tax!
Thanks to Liberal apologists like the lunatic Williams and the idiotic McBroon the unelected I can see this country going the same way as all multicultural countries.......civil war
Posted by Andrew Webster on February 7, 2008 7:45 PM
Report this comment Do Muslim nations accomodate laws of other religions in their legal structure? If GB in founded on priciples of Christianity then so be it. If someone doesn't like that then they are free to go to a nation that can accomodate them.
Posted by Ted Seres on February 7, 2008 7:44 PM
Report this comment Is Sharia law unavoidable or inevitable? Sharia law is not inevitable and is avoidable but only if and when our politicians, and the legal system, develop the backbone to make it absolutely clear that there is only one law in this country and that is the Common Law of the land and Scottish Law in Scotland, which includes some regulations and statutes, and is based on decisions applied in previous cases and decisions taken by duly appointed judges. We do not need nor do we want the introduction let alone implementation of other laws.
This country is, or perhaps was, a Christian country with a predominantly Christian set of social, moral and ethical values which, somehow, began to wane in the 1960’s, started to retreat more quickly during the 1970’s, was in full flight because it was not connected in any way with the attitude of business and commerce during the 1980’s following the mantra that, “there is no such thing as society”, and fell by the wayside in the 1990’s with the same set of political policies which served to increase the divide between the strata in society.
It has been put under increasing pressure because of the government’s policy of unfettered immigration which means that in Britain there are, in addition to the indigenous population of English, Scottish and Welsh, in excess of 100 nationalities living on this small island and each clamouring and demanding, and being allowed, to apply their own customs and traditions to the way in which they conduct their daily lives. By and large the indigenous people of this island are tolerant and have allowed this to happen even though, in many instances, they do not agree with many of those customs and traditions, including allowing muezzins to call Muslims to prayer from minarets, because they go against the way that we conduct our daily lives. This is particularly relevant because the Christian faith and services are not allowed to be practiced in some Islamic countries.
There are those of the ‘ruling’ liberal elite, who might also believe they are intellectual, who have bent over backwards to accommodate the wishes and demands of numerous peoples, tribes and religions to the extent that many in Britain appear to have lost all notion of their nationality, what they stand for and how they used to conduct their lives and this is and has been to the detriment of this nation because we appear to have lost all notion of social cohesion.
It is most unfortunate that the supposed head of the Anglican Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, should suggest that, “the adoption of some aspects of Islamic Sharia law in Britain "seems unavoidable", when he is meant to represent the views, feelings and opinions of the members of his branch of the Christian faith. Clearly if this nation needs moral and religious guidance it is not going to get it from the likes of Rowan Williams and his ilk and the country needs someone with a Christian backbone. Being tolerant of others religions does not mean that one should adopt their religious instruction, teaching,laws and guidelines.
Posted by Kenneth Armitage on February 7, 2008 7:37 PM
Report this comment I don't understand why people are feeling so
much hot under the collar regarding Sharia law.
it is nothing to do with other people.
Sharia law is entirely a personal matter for the
Muslims and is only applied where people wish
their affair to be settled and judged according to
Shariah.
It is irrelevant whether Britain or any other
country incorporates it or not . Practicing
believing Muslims will always ensure that their
personal affairs are settled according to Shariah.
The practicing Muslims hardly go to court of any
country to sort out personal disputes where
Shariah needs to be applied. It is a part of faith.
It is already in practice wherever they live. people
from UK or any other country who live in Muslim
countries don't have sharia law applied in their
personal affairs like marriage, divorce or
inheritance. it is only applied to Muslims.
When people talk about women's rights, they
perhaps don't remember that 1400 years ago
women had no right any where, Islam gave them
the right of inheritance and share in the
property of father, husband, son, brother and
daughter.
As far polgamy is concerned , very Muslims
practice it . On the contrary it is most widely
practiced in the West and Non Muslim world with
a different name-mistresses and a bit on the
side. Cheating on wives, having mistresses and
multiple secret sexual relationship seems to be
far more respectable and desirable than doing it
legally and taking responsibility.
Dr I A Khan
Posted by Dr Imteyaz Khan on February 7, 2008 7:37 PM
Report this comment This could be a good career move by the Archbishop, he can see that soon the country will be Islamic in Nature and he is positioning himself for a good spot in the new set up. I wonder when he will announce his conversion? We shouldn't be surprised to hear this sort of thing from a Blairite.
Posted by JohnW on February 7, 2008 7:35 PM
Report this comment Should we give a toss about what Archbishop
Catweazle has to say?
As for introducing Sharia Law, NO!
This spineless government and their qungo
lapdogs have given way to Moslems too much in
this country and the result is they just want
more.
Are we going to say enough is enough before we
are all forced to convrty or get our hands
chopped off?
No, this is not some fascist bigot having a rant
(at least I hope not.) This is someone who hears,
at street level, what apparent "moderate"
Moslems are saying. What is particularly
frightening is that they believe they are winning.
Catweazle should tuck himself in bed with his
Vicks and Ovaltine and be very quiet.
Posted by Pinkie on February 7, 2008 7:34 PM
Report this comment Sharia Law will be inevitable as long as twits like Rowan Williams - the Archbishop of Canterbury - are in positions of responsibility, and taking no notice of what most people believe, even if they know what that is.
Williams must go, or the death knell of the Church of England will sound very soon if it remains under his direction.
Sharia Law has no place here. If people want to live under Sharia Law, they should move to a country which practices it. This is a free country, they can leave whenever they want.
Posted by R Hutton on February 7, 2008 5:55 PM
I totaly agree with this comment and the rest denouncing this man. He has to go so we can have a God fearing man that actually believes in what he stands for! Can you imagine this in a Muslim country.
Posted by Gordon on February 7, 2008 7:31 PM
Report this comment At my place of work in Saudi Arabia I was forbidden by my employers in writing to wish anyone Merry Christmas. Booze, of course, was unobtainable and I seldom ventured more than two metres within one of the black-enshrouded females, lest I should cause a scandal by inadvertently bumping into one. Even to sit in a taxi with a Christian woman to whom one was not married or related could also lead to arrest. My liberties were curtailed in countless other ways too. OK, so I stayed on there for economic reasons as I would have done, goldmining in the Klondike or with a contract on Mars, but it wasn't much fun.
Now there is a suggestion to bring such intolerance to Britain and make it official. Doesn't the Archcanter of Deaconbury realise that, if given an inch, those fundmentalists who are certain that they have a monopoly on truth, will wish to extend any concessions made to stonings, the bastinado(caning the soles of the feet, which a Saudi pal of mine was subject to just for being in the company of someone being naughty), and execution for adultery. Doesn't Dr Williams realise that even if the concessions were limited to divorce and forced marriage, the female in the dispute would certainly not have a free choice between the two legal systems and would be coerced into doing what her menfolk dictate. Aren't the repeated incidences of Pakistani girls who do not agree to an arranged marriage or have been spooning with a non-Moslem indigene disappearing or having boiling fat "accidentally" poured over them in the kitchen sufficient evidence of the unprivileged position of women, and the attitudes created by the traditions of sharia law?
There are two (if not three)convicted people currently facing the death penalty for offences which are not even misdemeanours in the Western world. Williams has certainly not helped any international appeals for clemency on their behalf by showing his support at this point for the sharia which found them guilty.
Fortunately, I have retired to the Costa del Sol where the Spaniards are unlikely to reverse the drastic measures they took in 1492, though, admittedly, those particular evicted Muslims seem to have been surprisingly liberal.
Posted by Henrik de Vuil on February 7, 2008 7:31 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams, an intellectual, has just confirmed my belief that they are known as eggheads because their brains are addled.
Posted by eddy w on February 7, 2008 7:30 PM
Report this comment I think it's time we returned to the catholic faith as the established religion of this country. Henry the 8th's reasons for setting up the church of england were dubious to begin with. Rowan Williams has demonstrated that the heart of the C of E is hollow pragmatism.
Posted by andrew on February 7, 2008 7:30 PM
Report this comment I would suggest that as the Archbishop has shown he is so out of touch with the feelings of many of the Christians in this country, and as he does not understand them he cannot lead them. He should consider retiring now.
Posted by E LIster on February 7, 2008 7:29 PM
Report this comment Dr Williams, instead of being so PC he'll pander to any group should remember that the law applies to all of us, and one of the freedoms that the law affords us is that if we don't want to live under we can leave!
Posted by John on February 7, 2008 7:29 PM
Report this comment The adoption of even a limited version
of Sharia Law in the U.K. would be
(literally) the camel's nose under the
U.K. tent. Don't do it Brits. Keep
your your own secular laws intact.
Here in USA we have no such problems,
due to total separation of Church and
State. Mr Huckabee (now running for
the Republican nomination for President) is about to find out the
real facts of political life soon.
By the way - What does your reader
Gilmas have against Tasmania. It
wouldnt do much good sending Dr.
Williams there; there isnt even a
Tasmanian Devil left anymore.
(Signed) JAYCEE CALIFORNIA.
Posted by John W. Condon on February 7, 2008 7:28 PM
Report this comment It's ironic that the best men in the CoE are the Archbishop of York (born in Uganda) and the Bishop of Rochester (born in Pakistan). Each has an understanding of moral leadership, born out of adversity, and, boy, do they live up to their calling. They also have the gift of common sense and are thus in total contrast to Rowan Williams. There is so much that can be said of our chief prelate: naive, foolish, lacking common sense, utterly wet, etc. But what strikes me most is his sheer spineless feebleness.
Posted by Chingford Man on February 7, 2008 7:28 PM
Report this comment Boris for Archbish !!
Posted by Boudicca on February 7, 2008 7:28 PM
Report this comment If Dr Williams believes Sharia law in the UK is "unavoidable" he should resign immediately as the Archbishop of Canterbury! Britain as a Judeo-Christian nation is one people governed by common laws for all the nation. To say otherwise is to compromise "The Truth" & sell the sovereignty and birthright of the UK for a "mess of pottage".It means a sure compromise in a no-win situation that will certainly bring about more division, instead of unity.
Posted by Maryllis Hughes on February 7, 2008 7:28 PM
Report this comment "Britain's laws are British" asserts Home Office Minister Tony McNulty (7th February). Is this the opening hint of Government plans to withdraw us from the EU?
Posted by Stanley Eckersley on February 7, 2008 7:24 PM
Report this comment from what I have seen, lots of you guys are not civlised, not tolerant, and not educated about Islam at all.
you can't be a judge if you no nothing,
thanks for reading this, but you should understand it.
Khaled
Posted by inaspain1980@yahoo.com on February 7, 2008 7:22 PM
Report this comment Those of us that have read Mark Steyns "America alone, the end of the world as we know it" will recognise the prediction that all of Europe will fall behind the shroud of Islam. This particular news item is entirely constant with his views.
In Canada we will have similar,although not as extreme changes in our society as we don't get it either. Living beside the United States will be helpful, as we are greatly influenced in our everyday life by the good folks south of us. Lots of luck in beating this back. Will find this very interesting to follow.
Posted by John Spafford on February 7, 2008 7:21 PM
Report this comment Good grief.
Has he forgotten his ordination oath to uphold the 39 articles?
He should resign for any encouragement of the Muslim way:if he thinks Sharia is OK, he should study to be an Iman, and leave Lambeth palace for an evangelical Christian to move in after him.
He should try being a Christian in Saudi Arabia, where my brother lives. He is not expecting to hear church bells over there and has very little freedom.
Such crass comments from the top layers of the church,are one major reason I resigned the priesthood years ago.
Posted by Richard on February 7, 2008 7:21 PM
Report this comment 'What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?'. Dr Williams is an heretic and should be removed from office. Sharia has no place in a democratic or Christian country. England belongs to Christ, as does his Church. Anybody who is a real Christian left the Church of England years ago.
Posted by Johanna on February 7, 2008 7:18 PM
Report this comment I think Williams has just indicated why he and this labour government both need to be removed at power come their next election, assuming he is elected?
Posted by Johan on February 7, 2008 7:16 PM
Report this comment
This buffoon has just done more to stimulate anti-Islamic feeling than his naive and mis-guided mind can imagine...he is supposed to be intelligent, so maybe it was calculated and deliberate.
Posted by Dave on February 7, 2008 7:14 PM
Report this comment
In a democratic society, laws are created by elected representatives of the people. Priests - of any faith - are essentially self-appointed or appointed by a non-elected body and should have no right to pass or enforce their own laws.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 7:10 PM
Report this comment Provided the DT has reported it correctly, the man is potty. Possibly early senile dementia.
If I were him, I would plead ill health and resign - or maybe the men in grey suits could point to him that it would be good to go before he is pushed.
And any Lord Chancellor or politician who thinks it might be a good idea - they should go too.
Posted by Dizzy Ringo on February 7, 2008 7:10 PM
Report this comment Now I truly do fear for the future of our Country. When the leader of our native church is prepared to accept this as inevitable, there is no hope. If he is not going to defend the core elements that make our society what it is, the who is? God help us!
Posted by Thomas Le Cocq on February 7, 2008 7:07 PM
Report this comment He's plainly wrong and so out of touch that he should just resign.
Who will rid us of this turbulent priest?
Posted by Mark on February 7, 2008 7:04 PM
Report this comment Sir, with reference to the report on Wed 6 Feb "Family convicted of allowing wife's death", if as Archbishop Williams wants to allow Sharia Law relating to marital disputes to take precedence over English Law, would Sabia Ranis' husband have been allowed to beat her to death with impunity? Does he really think that the British people want this? He should go!
Posted by Robert Buckley on February 7, 2008 7:03 PM
Report this comment This is such a slippery slope, and it appears that we're halfway down it already. When did England become so un-English? Let's not continue on this path. Tolerance of others is good-Acquiessing to their wants and needs, when they fly in the face of what is really English is simply nuts. Historically we've been a nation who has accepted foreigners with open arms, and those foreigners have welcomed being embraced by our English-ness or they've known that this isn't the place for them and gone home.
Have we really lost our national identity? Good heavens; we're becoming the U.S.!
Posted by Lindsey on February 7, 2008 7:02 PM
Report this comment how can someone so educated, be so backward thinking. Sharia is the Stone-Age and he wants to bring it to our country. It WILL lead to floggings, then amputation, then stoning, then beheadings.
over my dead body Williams. Resign.
Posted by lynuk on February 7, 2008 7:00 PM
Report this comment NO Sharia law in this country! Has the Archbishop finally lost his wits? This the latest of a very long line of inane witterings and he should go, immediately; he isn't suited to being Archbishop of a Christian country. This really is beyond the pale.
Posted by Crispin on February 7, 2008 7:00 PM
Report this comment If our laws already include certain aspects which
have also traditionally been included within Sharia law, and these are exactly the same in
both of the two instances, they are effectively
the same as one another and are already part of
the law of the land anyway.
However, having totally different sets of legal
criteria and laws for each and every group, each
with its own court, legal legislators and advisers,
functioning outside this Country's legal system,
is a recipe for confusion, chaos and dangerous
double standards in terms of the legal outcome.
The law is quite complex enough as it is. It
doesn't need further complexities and sub-
divisions to suit each and every group wanting to
administer the law in their own way, just as they
please. I wonder what the Archbishop was
thinking of? I heard him but couldn't understand
him.
Posted by B.B.Warren on February 7, 2008 7:00 PM
Report this comment Unavoidable? Has the man completely fallen out of the crazy tree and bumped his head on every branch?
Sharia law is only unavoidable to two groups of people:
1) Weirdy-beardy Islamic fundamentalists who spend their time playing with plastic guns and making bombs that, more often than not, fail to blow up properly, and when they do blow up have a tendency to cause infinitely more harm to the bomber than the intended victim/s.
2) Foaming-at-the-mouth right wingers who revel in the thought that we're teetering on the brink of World War III, and that Great Britain is some sort of latter day Atlantic, sinking beneath the waves under the sheer weight of all those weirdy-beardy Muslim fundamentalists.
If the two groups could only get together and have a chat they'd find they have so much in common.
Fortunately the majority of us, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Scientologist, Richard Dawkins, and Buddhist alike, belong in neither group.
Posted by David Llewellyn on February 7, 2008 6:59 PM
Report this comment If the Archbishop, and doubtless the many others, think it is unavoidable. Can I ask him to take a quick trip over the Tehran to witness the punishment probably to be meted out to the 2 sisters for alleged adultry, and then report back to us here on his thoughts?
Posted by Andrew Docherty on February 7, 2008 6:59 PM
Report this comment The Arch beard is proving to be a very dangerous man with regards to social cohesion, he of all people should know from history how division can lead to genocide.
It should be illegal for individuals to encourage division and non integration.
Posted by wayne on February 7, 2008 6:58 PM
Report this comment One of the questions you posed was "Should every religion have the right to establish certain legal frameworks providing they do not contradict British law?" I would have thought that if a principle is enshrined in British law it would not be necessary for any religion to establish any legal framework. Additionally, the Archbishop states that there are both Christian and Jewish Orthodox courts in this country. Where and in what way? There used to be ecclesiastical courts in Britain in the Middle Ages but didn't these dwindle when Henry VIII became head of the church?
Posted by Anne de la Haye on February 7, 2008 6:57 PM
Report this comment Dear Sirs .
I have read about the comments from the Archibishop of Canterbury about Sharia Law and I am of the view that he totally out of order . We do NOT want Sharia Law in this country and he is out of touch with the average person . Maybe his approach to Religion and Politics is why the C of E is loosing attendence at Church services . I am appalled at the comments about the adoption being ' inevitable '.
Posted by Michael J Day on February 7, 2008 6:56 PM
Report this comment Barring civil war, eventually, yes, some form of
Sharia rule is inevitable.
Just as The Republic & Northern Ireland will be
united by the numbers, so England (I'm
assuming Scotland & Wales will be independent
nations in the next decade or three) will
become, given time, a Muslim nation living
under Sharia Law.
By the medium/well-done part of this century
English people who have relations who lived in
England pre c.1997 will be a dwindling minority.
A majority of the descendants of the people who
lived on this island & formed this country 1066-
1990s will have emigrated looking for sanctuary
& a better life in a place that still "seems" &
"feels" more like home.
Is England still England if all the English people
have left?
The population game will give the new "British"
people such numerical superiority by the late
21st century that, even assuming Sharia Law is
not imposed by diktat in 50 years, they could
hold a majority in Parliament and ratify just
about anything they wanted anyway.
Why rock the boat and risk insurrection when
you can bide your time and take over the
country (and continent?) from within.
I'm not trying to attribute evil motives to any of
this - it's just the massive numbers of
immigrants flooding the country are exactly
what it says on the tin - foreigners.
No-one asked for it, no-one wants it, and
because we're all such nice people we don't
confront it, we emigrate to Australia instead
trying to bloody well avoid it.
I'm sure it's the kind of thing DT readers are
supposed to say, but I wonder what on earth my
Grandparents & their parents before them, and
so on and so on, would say if they all knew they
fought wars for this country in order that this
happen - that in my lifetime England would
change (not evolve) from being recognizably
England when I was growing up in the 1980s to
what will be a foreign country by the time I'm in
pipe & slippers mode.
Posted by xxxCORRECTxxx on February 7, 2008 6:55 PM
Report this comment Not only is Dr Williams a fool, but he is a dangerous fool. His ill thought through comments are potentially damaging to the social structure of the UK.
When the wind blows where will Dr Williams be hiding I wonder?
Posted by nick on February 7, 2008 6:54 PM
Report this comment As a Christian under the general Anglican umbrella, I'm devastated to hear these comments. There CAN be only one law in this country covering all, right up to the Queen herself. Those who cannot accept that should move elsewhere, and fast. I won't write more - my language might become distinctly unChristian if I do!
Posted by Pam of Plymouth on February 7, 2008 6:52 PM
Report this comment And how does the venerable C of E get rid of this buffoon?
Posted by Omadhaun on February 7, 2008 6:52 PM
Report this comment I am sick of hearing the asinine observations of this scruffy old holy-man who has done nothing for the image of the Church of England. This is Britain and British law pertains, a fact he seems to have forgotten or wishes to ignore. We know who the idiot was who was instrumental in his appointment and he's now gone so get rid of this buffoon as well.
Posted by Blackbeetleremover on February 7, 2008 6:51 PM
Report this comment We already have Sharia law. Some LEAs serve hallal meat as standard so that that muslim children can have school meals. Although hallal meat breaks various national and European regulations (animals are bled to death without being stunned first).
Of course any non muslim who complains about being served illegally slaughter meat is automatically branded a racist
Posted by Mark P on February 7, 2008 6:49 PM
Report this comment If the immigrant communities cannot adapt to British Law then they know what to do, accept it or emigrate to lands where they can have what they want.
Posted by Realist on February 7, 2008 6:47 PM
Report this comment Dr Williams is an architypal member of the defeatest liberal-left establishment and seems happy to surrenber the West to the Islamists. Thank goodness the British public is at last waking up to the terrible danger facing this country!
But we need some decent leaders to replace the present bunch of no-hopers.
Posted by trubrit on February 7, 2008 6:47 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop's marginal notions
are incompatible with his position. Resign now.
Posted by Jack on February 7, 2008 6:47 PM
Report this comment Ah, if only we had Archbishops who wer just a little more worldly and pragmatic. But that's a contradiction in terms, I suppose.
Of course, the Archbishop himself is from a minority, being Welsh. Not quite the same kind of minority as the current Archbishop of York, no doubt, but a minority just the same.
But if we are all to be brothers under th skin surely a common, cohesive civil and criminal law based on solid English values has great merit? (subject to the approval of our european masters, of course). I rarely agree with the current Prime Minister, but I really feel it is up to minorities to become more English, not less.
Posted by Bobin on February 7, 2008 6:45 PM
Report this comment I've often thought the arch Bishop was out of his mind,he's proved it by his comments today.how many young muslim women have to die before the men in this country stand up and say NO Of couse they will not be the ones forced to cover up in public, denied education and forced into marrages they don't want
Posted by Jane MacDonald on February 7, 2008 6:44 PM
Report this comment Would someone please reassure me that the Taliban are not running Williams office
Posted by mikeray on February 7, 2008 6:42 PM
Report this comment To paraphrase "What sluggards, what cowards have we brought up in our church, who care nothing for their allegiance to their church. Who will rid us of this meddlesome priest."
Posted by Reg Fitzurse on February 7, 2008 6:42 PM
Report this comment Totally agree with John 5.48pm.What these people want is their cake and eat it.Unfortunately the British 'non confrontational' character is its own worst enemy.We should be more like the French and take to the streets in protest
Posted by J Timms on February 7, 2008 6:41 PM
Report this comment It will be over my dead body!
Posted by Anglo Manglo on February 7, 2008 6:39 PM
Report this comment Remind me, who appointed this Welsh Druid as Archbishop of Canterbury? Perhaps Cherie was behind it, in the hope that all the C of E members would desert and join her church.
Meanwhile, I find it strange that the only Bishops who stand up for Christianity are of non-European descent, possibly because a high percentage of our home grown clergy, like our politicians, appear to have taken up the job as a career, rather than a calling.
No wonder most parishes are finding great difficulty in raising the "Parish Share" to pay for a church hierarchy which is clearly failing to do the job of defending and promoting Christianity.
And if the Archbishop wants to know about discussions with other religions, I could introduce him to a Christian friend of mine from India. He could explain in detail why you can discus matters with any of the other religious groups except Muslims, who simply see any compromise as a source of weakness, and then use it to push for more.
Its time our Druid came down to earth and talked to people in the real world.
Posted by Brian E on February 7, 2008 6:39 PM
Report this comment Once again I have to say religion continues to pull us down. Most of the problems in this country and indeed abroad are caused by religion.
The current problems in Africa, Iraq, Bosnia, Ireland. Whilst there are at least 2 people left in the world and they are of different religions there will be wars.
Thank God I`m an atheist!
Posted by J.Barnes on February 7, 2008 6:37 PM
Report this comment I believe recognising Sharia Law in England will be divisive, not cohesive.
From the Straits Times website (January 30, 2008), an Indian mother had problems claiming on her deceased son's (a Muslim convert) insurance as "...Islamic authorities" in Malaysia, "have argued in court that under the country's religious laws for Muslims, a non-Muslim cannot claim inheritance from a Muslim".
See link link
also, link
What about women's rights when all a Muslim husband has to do is to say I divorce you 3 times?
It is against Sharia law for a Muslim to convert out of Islam, so how does one's freedom to choose one's religion (allowable in a western democracy) sit with this?
Posted by TakenOverByStealth on February 7, 2008 6:35 PM
Report this comment Having lived in a country where Sharia law was rigorously enforced, I can say, with some authority, that Williams has been living in an ivory tower for too long.
From a practical viewpoint alone, there is no possibility of adopting SOME aspects of Islamic Sharia law. What a ludicrous and unworkable notion. Where a conflict arose with British law, which law would be given precedence? Williams is effectively sanctioning a two-tier legal system, with special remedies in law only available to specific ethnic/religious groups, effectively placing them above our laws.
Bear in mind also that we have no shortage of home-grown Islamic fanatics who would happily see this country turned into an Islamic theocracy. Frankly, I am aghast that someone who purports to be the leading figure of Christianity in this country can talk such utter tripe and I think that the monarch should exercise her power as Fidei Defensor (Defender of the Faith) to have him removed from office.
Thomas Beckett must be turning in his grave.
Posted by ThankYou&Goodnight on February 7, 2008 6:35 PM
Report this comment What ever happened to when in Rome do as the Romans do? We should never ever change the rules for an immigrant minority. It will be a cold day in hell if they would change their laws for us.
Posted by Steve Reddy on February 7, 2008 6:35 PM
Report this comment I urge all Christians in the Church of England to make their way to the nearest Catholic Church and began the conversion process.
Posted by Benjamin Glass on February 7, 2008 6:34 PM
Report this comment It interesting how much he can accomodate when he has a mind. Here he is saying Sharia law in the UK is "unavoidable." Seems like just yesterday he was saying that under the modern Chinese government, everything was a-ok for the underground Christians there. And he was handling the worldwide liberal-conservative rift over gay bishops so very well!
A couple of months ago (or so), he was haranguing the US for losing its moral authority. What does he know about moral authority? He seems to have none himself, nor firm religious beliefs either, though he is the head of the C of E.
And the poster who asked when the Archbishop/Ayatollah would inform Her Highness what style of burka she should wear - thanks, that was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I was laughing so hard I cried.
Posted by Bu on U on February 7, 2008 6:34 PM
Report this comment Millions of our countrymen died to protect our way of life. Williams is a disgrace. This is really drawing the line in the sand now, and it's obvious which side he is on. Sack him and deport him to Saudi Arabia.
Posted by Robert on February 7, 2008 6:34 PM
Report this comment Williams is not only stupid, he is dangerous.
Posted by andrew cramb on February 7, 2008 6:33 PM
Report this comment ''Will no one rid us of this turbulent priest?''
Posted by Keith Hedges on February 7, 2008 6:31 PM
Report this comment Get me out of this wrecked, shell of a Country. I
seriously cannot take anymore of this management
of the masses by the rules of the minorities.
We are British. We live by British law. If those people
want sharia law then move to a Country that
practises it (of course only if you're allowed to live
their.) Subject closed.
Posted by Paul King on February 7, 2008 6:29 PM
Report this comment As the saying goes "When in Rome..."
Posted by Dianne Lever on February 7, 2008 6:27 PM
Report this comment What planet is this fool on, the planet lunacy? Of course its avoidable because we are a Christian country and we call the shots not minority groups. Britain has its own laws which whoever lives here has to abide by and if they do not like it, they can take a hike. Any changes to our system would without doubt start a revolution.
Posted by R J Cook on February 7, 2008 6:26 PM
Report this comment In Sharia a law a man can divorce a woman simply by saying "I divorce you". He can also have up to four wives which we call bigamy and that is illegal here. While we don't want that for any woman we need to put our own house in order. British divorce law is also a sham with no fault divorce. Christian teaching supports marriage and women by allowing no remarriage after divorce unless the spouse has died.
Posted by Rev Peter Ratcliff on February 7, 2008 6:24 PM
Report this comment The Archbishop of Canterbury really is turning out to be one of the silliest people in public life. The Anglican Church should be disestablished forthwith, the bishops removed immediately from the House of Lords, and the Muslim 'community' (as if it's one homogeneous whole) be left under no illusion that under no circumstances will any aspect of Sharia 'Law' be allowed in Britain. Our entire political class seems to have lost all sense on a range of issues, but this...!!
Posted by Rod Jones on February 7, 2008 6:20 PM
Report this comment NO & it should be totally out of the question because it would create a Ghetto Culture, whether walled-off or not. In the 21st. century in a Free-Democratic Country there have to be Laws which apply without exception to All Citizens. If a Crime is committed & there are different laws for different communities, who decides which Law would apply in a case involving different groups? The Victim/defendant/prosecutor? e.g. Women do not have the Rights under Sharia Law that they do in the UK.
It would lead back to the days of the Crusade!!!
Posted by Tony Kaye on February 7, 2008 6:17 PM
Report this comment Mr Williams is not determining the law in this country anymore, and neither should his colleagues from other faiths! This is a secular society, goddam it!
Posted by Herbert on February 7, 2008 6:16 PM
Report this comment This is just so outrageous it's unbelievable. Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury - he's in a position of responsibility. How can he go around spouting such arrant nonsense apparently without a care for the consequences? He's saying some people are allowed to commit crimes according to UK law because of their religion. I'm afraid you can't do that. Rowan Williams should step down.
One law for all. No exceptions. Applies to MPs, priests, muslims, bingo-players, whoever. THE LAW APPLIES EQUALLY OR NOT AT ALL.
Posted by Voland on February 7, 2008 6:16 PM
Report this comment The sight of Rowan Williams bending over to accomodate absolutely everyone, except Anglicans is a model of modern spinelessness. He seems to want to have his faith without believing it. No wonder all the serious Anglican's are jumping ship. It's all academic (a bit like Dr Williams himself), as under his stewardship we are no longer a Protestant country and it's more likely we'll be planning trips to Rome than Mecca.
Posted by C Winn on February 7, 2008 6:16 PM
Report this comment He has given the populace the impression that he was intelligent but has demonstrated by his comments about the potential introduction of Sharia Law that he has completely lost the plot.
He is no longer 'fit for purpose' - he should resign immediately.
Posted by John H G Lyon on February 7, 2008 6:15 PM
Report this comment 1. There is currently room within UK law for religious beliefs to be taken into account. Given this, it seems unnecessary to add a whole new legal system that would only apply to a small section of society and which would only further exclude rather than include Muslims into our community.
If Rowan Williams’ fear is that we are becoming a secular society, the answer is not to assume that in the future it will be a case of ‘religions’ versus a secular society. That assumes that all religions are the same and should be treated as equally valid. As a Christian I cannot accept that.
2. Introducing Sharia Law in the UK is an academic issue. If I were a lawyer attending a lecture given by a Christian leader, I would like to hear his/her views on some of the real issues facing Christian lawyers in the UK today – for example, ethical issues surrounding the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill or the creation of animal human hybrids; and the legal and Christian issues involved in the tackling of human trafficking into the UK.
3. As a Christian, I would hope that Rowan Williams would use opportunities of speaking to the media to highlight some of the great Christian initiatives happening around the nation, like ‘Hope 08’. Sadly, his comments have only further alienated people from Christianity, and given many the illusion that Christianity is out of touch with the normal person, rather than being something that is utterly relevant to every living person. From his comments, I would rather suggest that Rowan Williams is out of touch with the views of most Christians.
Being a Christian is not about finding the lowest common denominator with other religions - rather it's about having an answer for "the hope that is in you", that God loves us so much that he gave his only son Jesus Christ so that we can be restored in relationship with him.
Posted by Christopher Pix on February 7, 2008 6:12 PM
Report this comment Mark Pritchard M.P. believes the Archbishop ofCanterbury "should be concentrating on winning souls into the Church of England rather than getting involved in politics."
Yet, throughout the history of both Judaism and Christianity there has been an intertwining between the state and both religions. Look at your Bible and you will see this is so. Since Biblical times this has continued right through the times of Constantine and William the Conqueror to Henry VII, Oliver Cromwell right up to recent times in Northern Ireland.
You may not like that fact but it is undeniably true. Even in Parliament there are Bishops in the House of Lords, and the Conservative Party, above all others, has maintained such strong links with the religions that it is not for nothing that the Church of England is known as the Tory Party prayer.
It is inevitable that our non-political leaders will get involved in politics when the professional politicians are more concerned with point scoring skirmishes between the main two parties - who are more interested in using expenses for the benefit of their own families or fiddling election contributions.
I am sure the electorate in Pritchard's constituency will remember his ill advised words at the next General Election.
Posted by C.G.Tozer on February 7, 2008 6:12 PM
Report this comment Here is the real question:
Is the Archbishop of Canterbury unavoidable?
And if he is, please tell me how to do it.
Posted by Simon Moore on February 7, 2008 6:12 PM
Report this comment As a not very practising member of the C of E, I would not presume to pontificate. But I wonder just who does represent the members of this Church nowadays. I long for someone to speak up to defend the practices, traditions and beliefs of the C of E - something in which I could believe and with which I could identify. Ironically, the defence of the C of E appears to come from members of the establishment born overseas. But by some most senior members we are just told to capitulate to Islam.
Posted by Howard on February 7, 2008 6:11 PM
Report this comment The man is unfit to lead the Church of England and should resign.
His comments are an insult to those Christians, especially those that convert from Islam who face repression and even death in Middle Eastern Countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran.
If Sharia law is brought in in any way, then the 7/7 bombers have won, and our troops are wasting their time fighting the Taliban.
Britian is a fantastic country with a great tradition, even though our politicians are doing their best to ruin it. That tradition was built on Christian values.Earlier migrants like the Huguenots appreciated the freedoms they found here. Some Moslems do, I am sure, but those who don't should reaslly ask themselves whether they would not be better off living in another country. It would be better for them and for us. Perhaps they would like to take Dr Williams with them.
Posted by John Petley on February 7, 2008 6:10 PM
Report this comment Sharia Law is only unavoidable if we do not avoid it. Last time I checked Parliament is the ultimate law maker for this country and we elect that Parliament.
In my view we need less religion on our laws, not more.
Dr Williams should be ashamed of himself for supporting (or at least giving the appearance of supporting) inhumane, sexist and racist laws in the name of "tolerance".
Posted by Martin on February 7, 2008 6:10 PM
Report this comment No wonder nobody goes to his church anymore!
Posted by Jan on February 7, 2008 6:09 PM
Report this comment This pathetic Archbishop has gone soft in the head. Someone please relieve him of his post, and put him out of his misery.
Posted by andy on February 7, 2008 6:08 PM
Report this comment Hey, while we are at it, lets bring back the ecclesiastical courts and start to burn heretics at the stake.
Sharia has no place in a secular country. I suggest that this guy get himself to the nearest trial of Elan's Alzheimer drug and enroll. In the mean time he should renounce his collar or have it taken from him.
Posted by Brosco Pertwee on February 7, 2008 6:06 PM
Report this comment Why should sharia law be unavoidable. As far as I can see, it is completely avoidable.
The government can ban it completely and advise those persons who don't like it to go elsewhere.
Have these people not heard the phrase, 'When in Rome...' Maybe the Arhcbishop of Canterbury should resign and go with them.
Posted by White Anglo Saxon Protestant on February 7, 2008 6:06 PM
Report this comment There is no place for enshrining Sharia law in this country at all. Our laws are based on common law and centuries of precedent and acts of Parliament which lay down the statute. I would expect to abide by the laws of whichever country I lived in, irrespective of my religious beliefs, and I firmly believe that all those who wish to live in the UK should do the same.
Banks may wish to offer sharia compliant products to attract the Muslim money; just as some supermarkets offer halal and kosher products. That is a matter of business. However, altering and including sharia in our laws will not work. If this is done for the Muslims, then the same courtesy should be offered to those of other faiths as well.
I see this as the thin end of an extremely short wedge. If Dr Williams is against honour killings and forced marriages, then he should not be arguing for accepting sharia. His sentiments are commendable, Christian tolerance and understanding; however, the Muslim world does not think in the same terms, and he should not make the mistake of thinking they do. Look at the reports of the two sisters sentenced to death by stoning in Iran recently on what appears to a western eye to be very little evidence.
Christianity is 2000 years old, and is 600 years ahead of Islam. Look at where Christianity was historically 600 years ago - burnings and executions for heresy for a start, in the Middle Ages. It could be argued that Islam is in it's own Medieval period, and has some way to go before the level of Dr Rowan's tolerance is achieved. Until then, Sharia law should remain in Muslim countries where they are governed by a theocracy, not by democracy. It has no place in my country.
Posted by R E teacher on February 7, 2008 6:03 PM
Report this comment THE THIN EDGE OF A VERY THICK WEDGE!
THIS MAN HAS TO GO!!
ROWAN WILLIAMS HAS TO GO!!!
Posted by Gbenga Williams on February 7, 2008 6:02 PM
Report this comment In common with some other notables, Dr. Williams has lost the plot. Sharia Law is a law based on the Islamic religion, and in case he has forgotten, the UK's laws are secular, and apply to everybody. No exceptions. There are sound reasons as to why we have separation of church and state in this country, and it would be intolerable for any religious group to seek primacy of their own religious "laws" in a secular, multicultural society. It seems Muslim bigamists are already afforded special dispensations by this incompetent government, and this is clearly a breach of our law that needs to be rapidly rectified. Either everybody abides by the laws of the land, without exception, or you will have anarchy. A great many Muslims, and female Muslims in particular, have settled in the UK in order to escape the horrors of Sharia Law. Anybody who is stupid enough to propose implementation of this barbaric code into our secular society should be given a one way ticket to Iran or Saudi Arabia. Personally, I think a great many of our laws are unjust, stupid, ill conceived or plain bad laws, but so what? They are the laws of our country, and are the fruits of our democratically elected successive governments, and everybody must be equal under the law. If you don't like it - leave.
Posted by Simon, London on February 7, 2008 6:02 PM
Report this comment
Has Dr Rowan Williams got it wrong?
I guess this guy went to a good uni, Oxbridge, I would imagine.
Another proof that education is no proof of intelligence.
Posted by Old Nick Heavenly on February 7, 2008 6:02 PM
Report this comment Get rid of him - he's a menace. Reminds me of Lord Chamberlain. These damned PC people live in a world of their own, where you "turn the other cheek" and give in to minority requests, without realising the reasoning behind it. He cannot see the world as it is. There is always a country, a dictator or a religion bent on destroying another. Sharia law in the UK is the thin end of the wedge. We have to make a stand - Williams must go!
Posted by Geoffrey on February 7, 2008 6:01 PM
Report this comment What planet is Rowan Williams on? Anyone in this country should be subject to the same laws as us - if they don't like it they have the alternative of living in a country where the law is of their liking.
Any developments along the lines sugested by Williams would be the thin end of the wedge and those who support it would eventually press for us all to be subject to us.
Posted by Edward on February 7, 2008 6:01 PM
Report this comment Unbelievable that a man talks like that. Is he totally ignorant?
Stick to the Bible, sir, and don't talk nonsense, PLEASE!!!
Posted by Roel Berkhout on February 7, 2008 6:00 PM
Report this comment The Arch Druid of the Church of England speaks - but this time, he speaks the truth. And the truth hurts, does it not, my little brothers? Our English common law is subject today to many foreign influences nowadays, most notably through our membership of the European Union. However, European laws which reflect civilian legal principles still follow pretty much the same principles as our own. In some cases, it even improves ours (e.g. good faith). It is interesting to ponder how Shariah law will dovetail with our own law. I suspect that there will be problems, not least the fact that penalties under Shariah law are harsh. Could someone be executed in England under Shariah law, for example? But, of course, legal musings are of no consequence. I agree with the Arch Druid that the adoption of Shariah law is inevitable. It should be seen as another step on the way to destroying England: NuLabor's grand strategy proceeds apace.
Posted by dc on February 7, 2008 5:58 PM
Report this comment Let's ignore the headline for one moment and clarify two important points that have been raised.
What accommodation with other religions was the archbish referring to?
What modifications to stamp duty was the pm referring to.
Let's understand what our "leaders" have already committed us to, since this is probably the best guide we'll get as to what they might "accommodate" in the future.
Posted by don on February 7, 2008 5:57 PM
Report this comment This just shows how out of touch the Church of
England has become. Frankly Rowan Williams is a
disgrace to the concept of intelligent thought. Of
course he is only following in the well trodden
footsteps of the political class ( or non-thinking,
chattering class) as someone who does not inhabit
planet Earth any more.
Posted by David W Gillespie on February 7, 2008 5:56 PM
Report this comment Maybe we could consider this when all Islamic countries allow the free practice of other religions such as Christians, Buddists, Sikhs etc. as well as non believers.
Until then it should be completely illegal to practice Sharia law in this country.
Posted by Andy on February 7, 2008 5:55 PM
Report this comment Sharia Law will be inevitable as long as twits like Rowan Williams - the Archbishop of Canterbury - are in positions of responsibility, and taking no notice of what most people believe, even if they know what that is.
Williams must go, or the death knell of the Church of England will sound very soon if it remains under his direction.
Sharia Law has no place here. If people want to live under Sharia Law, they should move to a country which practices it. This is a free country, they can leave whenever they want.
Posted by R Hutton on February 7, 2008 5:55 PM
Report this comment This just shows how out of touch the Church of
England has become. Frankly Rowan Williams is a
disgrace to the concept of intelligent thought. Of
course he is only following in the well trodden
footsteps of the political class ( or non-thinking,
chattering class) as someone who does not inhabit
planet Earth any more.
Posted by David W Gillespie on February 7, 2008 5:55 PM
Report this comment On the one hand we have the government trying to force us into a federal superstate run by many of our previous enemies, and on the other, we have the head of our Church telling us to submit to muslem law!
This is beyond parody! How every country in the world must be laughing at us!
We were already being attacked by our own government; now it is our Church leader who is rolling over!
The man is an utter disgrace and simply has to go! Dr Sentamu would be an excellent choice to replace him.
Posted by BorisP on February 7, 2008 5:55 PM
Report this comment In this country Justice is supposed to be blind to who is seeking it and blind to whoever has transgressed the law. Sharia law is not blind, justice there depends on your sex, religious belief and possibly on other things.
Has ever any country existed with two systems of law?
Posted by Mike Sedgwick on February 7, 2008 5:52 PM
Report this comment I have read Rowan Williams' book on Arius, and it's fascinating stuff. He is a very brilliant theologian, and has many insights to offer. However, to say this he must have a remarkably shaky grip on reality, in sharp contrast to his colleagues at York and Rochester.
I have read today (in one of the few comments posted by Muslims attempting to defend him) that Sharia law would be much better for dealing with divorce than English law, because it's so much quicker. While I'm prepared to acknowledge that English law develops on precedent and is subject to evolution, I am really heartily sick and tired of so-called "moderate Muslims" (as Shakespeare said, "that is, hot ice, or wondrous strange snow!") only telling half the truth. A MAN can divorce his wife in Sharia law by saying "I divorce you", three times. A WOMAN must convince a Sharia court that her husband has done wrong, according to whatever criteria the court chooses to admit for "wrong".
The VIKINGS, for crying out loud, had the identical law for "I divorce you" - say it three times, once in the bedroom, once in the kitchen and once at the front door, and you were divorced. It applied to BOTH men and women.
That's right, in terms of gender equality, which according to the culture of this nation is now generally agreed to be a good thing, accepting even this tiny and "uncontroversial" aspect of Sharia law would be to take us back to a level of humanity shamed by the Vikings.
I admire Rowan Williams as an academic, but I am disgusted and infuriated at the arrogance of someone who can use the position of Archbishop of Canterbury to make such an idiotic pronouncement, which flies in the face of the dignity and integrity of the very office he holds. He has to go.
Posted by Xan on February 7, 2008 5:52 PM
Report this comment Dr Williams must be mad and with views like that should be remopved from his job. In a Christian country such as our we do NOT want such practices adopted here and if the Muslims want to follow their Shria law then they should reurn to wher they canpractise it. I have worked in Saudi Arabia and I know what the reaction would be if one tried to practise Christianity there.
Posted by Eric Alley on February 7, 2008 5:51 PM
Report this comment Why is it that the Uk always has to roll over and have its tummy tickeled?
UK law is UK law. If we visit an Islam country they expect us to 100% observe their laws [as several UK citizens have found to their cost] - they should expect to do the same in other countries and obey the local laws.
Posted by Les McLaren on February 7, 2008 5:51 PM
Report this comment I suggest the Archbishop goes on a "community cohesion" fact-finding mission and attempts to set up a church in say Tehran, or Islamabad.
The man is a complete wet.
Posted by Rob Neal on February 7, 2008 5:50 PM
Report this comment It's difficult to understand the Bishop's reason for commenting on this subject-is it to allow the different religions including the Church of England to influence British laws.If so are the Muslim Council as willing to have aspects of other religions(if these religions were interested in bringing their laws into mainstream British law) as much influence-will Muslims obey these.Or is the only way to have influence in this country is by breaking the law.
By the way,India has a seperate Muslim code but does Pakistan have a Hindu code
Posted by Kiku on February 7, 2008 5:49 PM
Report this comment
Why is Mr Thompson so surprised?
What does he expect from the synagogue of Satan?
Does he think the Archbishop of Canterbury is a Christian? Come come now, next he will be telling us he's surprised Gordon Brown is lying to us!!
On the positive side, I love it when these counterfeiters show their true colours, it's all grist for the mill for me and makes my job oh so much easier.
Posted by Charles Crosby on February 7, 2008 5:48 PM
Report this comment As long as we have people pandering to muslims and all other "minorities", then yes it is unavoidable. British people need to wake up and take action fast. Their Country & Heritage is gradually being eroded and it has to stop. Is there any political party going to say "enough is enough"other then the BNP? If not then it seems they will be getting my vote.
If muslims, or anyone else for that matter, don't like our British way of life then they should bu**er off to somewhere more suited to their needs. The last thing this country needs is wishy-washy looney liberals telling us that we should abandon our British culture to suit alien cultures.
Posted by John on February 7, 2008 5:48 PM
Report this comment Allowng official recognition of sharia law " for consenting muslims only " is the thin end of the wedge.
Ever since NuLab converted en masse to Islam, we have been bombarded with propaganda about this all pervading, crude, brutal, archaic religion.
People should understand want muslims want, which is nothing less than this country becoming an Islamic theocracy governed solely by sharia. Nothing less will satisfy the demands of islam as this religion demands of its followers that they convert the kaffirs ( ie us ) or put us to death.
Let them have sharia recognised and before you know it they will demand sharia style punishments, then demand that all women who live in predominately muslim areas must dress according to sharia law. Get the picture ? Understand what will happen?
Islam and modern western society are incompatible. You will eventually arrive at a point where the choice will have to be made as to which road our society takes.
As for me, I'm already building barricades.
Posted by paul atherton on February 7, 2008 5:46 PM
Report this comment
Our unelected and unrepresentative Archbishop, once again, dithers into the moral maze and gets himself hopelessly lost.
He is, of course, completely and utterly wrong, yet again, so let's explain why.
If the Law is to mean anything, at all, to anyone then there has to be One law and we all must be equal under it. Otherwise, there might as well be no law at all.
The problem is that the Law, for many years, has been steadily undermined by all kinds of wrong-headed policies that has led to a series of stupid, pathetic compromises. EG Motor cycle helmets, observation of religion in family courts, Doctors who refuse to do their job and their duty because of "personal convictions", etc.
I, for one, think that it is now time that we liberated English Law and English Democracy of all the various faith-based pressure groups. If people wish to subscribe to bronze-age or dark-aged fairy tales or primitive superstitions then that's really up to them.
The Law, however, is for all and must represent all and if that's a problem then anyone is free to leave.
Posted by Jason Mead on February 7, 2008 5:45 PM
Report this comment Stone me !
Has the old duffer totally lost the plot this time.
Surely his time would be better spent trying to convert the muslims as, unless things have changed, one still has to believe in Jesus as the saviour to gain entrance to the heavenly abode.
Actually I don't have a huge problem with "muslim marriage" or "muslim divorce", that's up to them, so long as they gain no advantage in law or pecunary gain from such.
Bigamy is still a crime is Britain ( both temporal and spiritual ), isn't it ?
Posted by AndrewG on February 7, 2008 5:44 PM
Report this comment Well one thing for sure the lawyers must be rubbing their hands with glee if this comes about| UK laws v Sharia law.
Posted by sparshot on February 7, 2008 5:43 PM
Report this comment Symbolic or shambolic head of 70 million Anglicans? Does this mean I can change religion to avoid prosecution for beating my wife? What is this guy on?
Posted by rich on February 7, 2008 5:40 PM
Report this comment I suggest he goes to Saudi and adopts a rule of law contrary to the sharia.He may be in for a rude aweking.
Alternatively he can convert to Islam and forget about living in a christian country which he is apparently a leader of.
I feel sure the Muslim Council of Britain can give him a cosy mosque to preach in.
Posted by Meade on February 7, 2008 5:39 PM
Report this comment I think he is giving in terrorism by the back door. If people do not want to stay in this country, then please get out quickly. for there will be a blood bath the like of which ireland never saw. All persons not willing to integrate get out.
Posted by bobby singh on February 7, 2008 5:39 PM
Report this comment What the heck, you're now going to be paying taxes
to give benefits to multiple wives/families of
Muslims, as long as they contracted the "marriages"
outside the UK.
Posted by Melanie on February 7, 2008 5:39 PM
Report this comment The phrase 'Foot in the door' springs to mind.
How will the archbish recognise the females in his flock if they are all wearing niquabs?
Silly me. There would no longer be an archbish. Or bishs.
Posted by Toophingers on February 7, 2008 5:37 PM
Report this comment If you want to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, fine. The UK is a SECULAR country, and what people believe is up to them. We have Laws, and that's what people obey. If you want Sharia Law to take precedence in YOUR life, contactb me and I will give you a list of countries where you can go to take advantage of it.
Posted by Peter Vile on February 7, 2008 5:36 PM
Report this comment If it's ok for religious groups to have their own
legal systems, what about other groups?
Homosexuals, cigarette smokers, atheists, those
who don't believe in paying taxes, those who
think men are not equal to women and shouldn't
have equal employment rights, Scientologists,
Creationists, the Taliban, Royalty, supporters of
George Galloway. The reason we have for one law
under which all are equal is that when we draft
our laws we do so in the way we believe is best
for everyone - not just those who aren't believers
in Islam or the tooth fairy.
Posted by Annie on February 7, 2008 5:36 PM
Report this comment When will Ayatollah Williams tell Her Highness what
style of burqua is appropriate for the Head of the
Church of England?
Posted by John Pfannenstiel on February 7, 2008 5:34 PM
Report this comment I just do not understand this.
I appreciate the pragmatism of RW's view, as well as his tolerant approach, but do we really want or need to accommodate Islam like this?
For many Brits the perception of Islam is that it is an extreme and intolerant faith. This view is not based on blind prejudice, but on the quite clear barbaric (to us, at least) laws in many middle eastern regimes, to the support for international terrorism.
I would ask RW if he believes that most Muslims would be as tolerent of his faith?
Posted by paul matthews on February 7, 2008 5:34 PM
Report this comment I suspect Dr Williams would quietly approve of a spot of religious fundamentalist law in Britain, provided, of course, that it didn't apply to him. Let's recap what this man believes in:
- talking snakes
- every animal in the world living within walking distance of Noah's house
- the virgin birth
Just as a sample.
Why does anyone listen to this superstitious obscurantist and his demonstrably idiotic views?
Posted by AndyC on February 7, 2008 5:34 PM
Report this comment I share the comments on the blog, the thin end of the wedge.
Posted by Kate on February 7, 2008 5:33 PM
Report this comment The way that things appear to be going,it is inevitable.
Oh I nearly forgot.Sack him.
Posted by Manic Mike on February 7, 2008 5:33 PM
Report this comment Such a fool. He's losing followers because he stands for nothing anymore. This is just one example. It's sad for the l0s of millions of commonwealth and US soldiers who fought to defend Britain and others from Naziism to find a future generation ready to turn the society over to something worse. What a waste of blood, treasure and sanity.
Posted by warren from calgary on February 7, 2008 5:32 PM
Report this comment No, it is not 'unavoidable'. Those who choose to live in Britain should respect its culture and its laws and not seek to impose their own.
For once, I agree with Gordon Brown.
Posted by Arlene on February 7, 2008 5:32 PM
Report this comment No it is not unavoidable, quite the reverse.
Just because a deluded old fart has air time given to his brainless ramblings it does not mean anything at all.
Posted by Andrew on February 7, 2008 5:32 PM
Report this comment Yes, unavoidable. Britain's days of greatness are long over and a new era of hell is about to begin - ushered in courtesy of PC politicos who would rather see civilization die an awful death than be seen as Christian, controversial or insensitive. Ditto on Europe. AMF.
Posted by Miles Ipswich on February 7, 2008 5:30 PM
Report this comment It just goes to show how much Rowan and his church are out of touch with the majority of the population. Maybe he should start looking for a new job before the Mulas have his!
Posted by Duncan on February 7, 2008 5:29 PM
Report this comment Are Dr William’s views compatible with his role as the head of the Church of England? Do you agree with our blogger, Damian Thompson, that he should be removed from the post?
One hundred percent agree, by the way is this why Blair became a Catholic.
Posted by Unholy messer on February 7, 2008 5:29 PM
Report this comment If, as Rowan Williams suggests, adoption of Sharia law is inevitable, then why bother about removing him from his post, when it would probably be deemed acceptable to remove him his hands, his feet, and even his head? I'm off to Saudi!
Posted by Maurice Collins on February 7, 2008 5:28 PM
Report this comment This man must go. If he wants to preach acceptance of a religious dogma that is alien to most in this land then he can do it from a soap box like all the other loonies and not be given the grace of a pulpit.
"constructive accommodation" with Islamic practice in areas such as marital disputes? What about that poor child who was married at 15 with the approval of the Islamic "authorities" and subsequently offered up for rape (reported 3 Feb)?
Allowing any aspect of Sharia law into this country is not only avoidable it is vital for the future of the country that absolutely nothing of Sharia law is adopted.
Why? I am a professional woman. I have young female relatives. I have gay friends. And all I can think is NO NO NO.
Dr Rowan is entitled to his pathetic point of view; I imagine he is trying to be "all things to all men"? I am entitled to feel disgust at anyone who promotes religious laws in this country; especially when they deem women as chattels whose word is lesser than a man's, and gay men as fodder for the noose.
Posted by Tiggy on February 7, 2008 5:27 PM
Report this comment What on earth is this man on about? Can someone remind the Archbishop that this is a Christian country, OUR country, and that sharia law has NO PLACE IN IT. If he is so intent on promoting community cohesion, let him campaign instead to send the militant elements of the muslim population back to Pakistan. Problem solved. And yes, he should be sacked forthwith.
Posted by marianne on February 7, 2008 5:26 PM
Report this comment Sir,
As an Indian national working in the UK I found this news very much disappointing.
I have great respect for all the religions ,however,I belive that in a given country there must only be a single law(system).
I could very well relate this issue to the one back home in India,where the exisiting "muslim personal law" has become an extremely divisive issue and the all powerful board of this personal law,generally with medivial mindset, has infact become a major roadblock for the progressive voices in the community.So much so that no political party has been able to implement common civil code as required by the constitution.
I only hope that UK continues with its current legal system.
Posted by Rajeev on February 7, 2008 5:26 PM
Report this comment 'will no one rid me of this troublesome priest'
Lucky for this primate that he is at Canterbury in the 21st century and not the 12th.
Posted by Henry 2 on February 7, 2008 5:26 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams is a moonbat and should be divested of his robes and sent back to the bat cave. We need a real religious leader as Archbishop of Canterbury, and that man is Dr Sentamu, Archbishop of York.
Posted by Verity on February 7, 2008 5:26 PM
Report this comment I don't really understand what this bishop is on about.
Clearly English law is paramount (or Scottish law in Scotland) or in fact actually EU law and the charter of human rights is probably paramount, and anything else is a matter of choice between individuals.
Ie. the law applies to everyone equally, that is the most fundamental cornerstone of our culture. If people choose to be bound by sharia law as well, where it doesn't contradict English law then that is their business, but nobody cold be made subject to sharia law against their will whereas by virtue of living in England you are automatically subject to English law.
I can't work out what I have missed. His statement is ludicrous, and can only conclude the man has flipped.
I anticipate a warm reception from the sturdy DT posters for this latest flowering of PC insanity.
Posted by cuffleyburgers on February 7, 2008 5:24 PM
Report this comment "Constructive accomodation" is another term for appeasement.The loony Archibishop of Canterbury should be scrapped as soon as possible.He has done more than anyone else to discredit the Church of England.The C of E should dispatch this bearded nuisance to Tasmania.
Posted by gilmas on February 7, 2008 5:23 PM
Report this comment I've always had the impression Rowan Williams was a bit loopy, he has confrimed this today and Quite frankly this man should be sectioned, what on earth is he talking about ?
Posted by Edd herts on February 7, 2008 5:22 PM
Report this comment Rowan Williams should convert to Islam and campaign for it from within. He has absolutely no right to use his office to patch into the fabric of UK law, the product of centuries of christian practice, a primitive 6th Century Arab legal code.
Any Sharia law must go through Parliamentary vote: if we want harem polygamy, it needs to go to our democratic legislature. We live in a democracy, not a set of religious cultures, each jostling for position. The secular state emerged from religious wars. We have to sit under democratic law. Were I a Jew in the UK, I would be getting really scared now. And the Home Affairs Select Committee on forced marriages must be horrified.
Posted by Ted on February 7, 2008 5:21 PM
Report this comment Perhaps Dr Williams should remember that in Saudi
Arabia, they imprison you for owning a bible or
talking to a woman in public. This is the reality of
sharia law in practice
Posted by dominic carman on February 7, 2008 5:20 PM
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