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Thursday, February 07, 2008
Are we all middle class now? Posted at: 00:01 The head of BBC Radio 4 has defended his station from criticism that it is too “middle class” by countering that this is no longer an exclusive label.
 | | How would you define a middle class family? |
Jane Garvey, the new presenter of Woman’s Hour, put herself on a collision course with her employers this week after she claimed there was a “middle class bent” to every one of its programmes.
However, Mark Damazer, who runs the station, said that the middle classes had expanded and no longer only consisted of “posh people drinking expensive wine”.
Do you agree with Mr Damazar, who echoes John Prescott’s sentiment that “we’re all middle class now”?
If “posh people drinking expensive wine” is no longer an accurate description of the middle classes, what is?
Is there anything wrong with a radio station catering to a middle class audience?
Comments (142)
We're a long way from the days of the Attlee government when the Education Secretary, Ellen Wilkinson, expressed the hope that BBC broadcasting would help to nurture what she called a "Third Programme nation." Too bad so much of Britain today is more like a "hip-hop nation." At least Radio Four deserves a cheer if they're still trying to uphold standards.
Posted by Cal Brock on February 8, 2008 8:40 AM
Report this comment There will always be a working, middle class and upper class. Its just the way we try and define it that needs to change.
Posted by PPC Management on February 8, 2008 8:29 AM
Report this comment In answer to Michael Martin-Smith on February 7, 2008 7:12 PM
Yes, great fun, especially when we consider the average Chav would think 'Venezuela' and 'Chavez' are the names of the latest pop group, due to the excellent education (conditioning) they receive!!
Posted by Charles Crosby on February 8, 2008 8:21 AM
Report this comment I am certainly not middle class. However, I hope that, should I happen to meet them, I would always treat the better representzatives of both the middle class and the lower class with politeness.
Posted by Kevin Dunn on February 8, 2008 6:25 AM
Report this comment NB: in order to find out more about middle-class mentality, please check comments made in:
YOUR VIEWS, on the following subjects:
Would Tony Blair make a good EU president?
Should parents be held to account for their children's misbehaviour?
Should village schools be saved at all costs?
Is Sharia law in Britain "unavoidable"?
What is the best way to enjoy a stress-free holiday?
Etc.etc.
Posted by Mack, Harrow, London, UK on February 8, 2008 6:12 AM
Report this comment No, we are not all middle class, if indeed such a strata of society ever really existed, because those who have to work for a living must be all working class, surely.
The notion of a middle class was invented to keep those who called themselves professionals, living in their own private house in suburbia, white-collar job in the City or perhaps one associated with medicine, dentistry, the law, banking or even teaching, and who could afford to maintain a slightly higher standard of living than the 'ordinary' working man and who took up sports like tennis, badminton and golf, maybe horse-riding.
This middle class 'expanded' during the 1990's because of the considerable increase in the income of tradesmen associated with the building industry. The rapid increase in the price of housing meant that the amounts earned by carpenters, plasterers, electricians, plumbers and others meant they were the ones who could afford the bigger houses in suburbia, could afford to belong to the local Golf Club and take two foreign holidays each year and maybe even send their children to public school, unlike many others who worked in offices and those mainly in the engineering professions working in industry and manufacturing, who saw their incomes reduce.
So, was it a rounding up, or a rounding down?
Nonetheless, if Jane Garvey, a presenter for only 3 months on Woman's Hour, is critical of programmes on BBC Radio 4, does not like the content and is trying to change things to meet her own agenda rather than continue to meet the wishes of the listeners, the customers, then Ms Garvey has a choice, put up or shut up or, preferably, shove off to some other left-wing liberal radio programme.
Posted by Kenneth Armitage on February 8, 2008 6:11 AM
Report this comment Middle class = Parasites
Now, tell me: are a middle class?
Posted by Mack, Harrow, London, UK on February 8, 2008 5:19 AM
Report this comment A home-owner who could read and write, had a non-manual job, took foreign holidays and didn't stink would probably have been regarded as middle class a century or so ago. Now these things are utterly commonplace, which is probably the reason some people say we're 'all middle class now'.
But there were other characteristics the middle class then rated highly: saving, debt-avoidance, respectability, responsibility, manners, correct grammar and pronunciation, cultured tastes and interests, making education a priority. Are we all middle class by these standards?
Posted by Janet Davis on February 8, 2008 2:57 AM
Report this comment If middle class means that you dont want to listen to mindless drivel on the radio, whats wrong with that?
Three radio stations are aimed at normal intiligent people, the rest are aimed at the half witted, its a shame about them, but eleven years of new labour must produce casualities, others seem to want just a wall of noise and babble to drown out their horrible lives, see above vis new labour.
The BBC seems to specialise in employing people who dont like the English, our history, or anything about us, this silly female seems to belong to this lot.
Posted by Dave on February 8, 2008 12:55 AM
Report this comment Who cares if we carry on the way we're going it won't matter.
I'm so happy to be surrounded by all these middle class people on the train on the way home.
Those ones with their feet on the seats on the train, sharing that cocktail of dog's muck, urine, phlem and bird's mess picked up from the streets.
Their impersonal stereos turned up to share with the rest of the carriage.
Their half eaten take aways left on the seats ready for the next passenger.
Those high volume personal mobilephone calls, the contents of which, would shock Jeremy Kyle.
The middle class values that my family instilled in me, included a love of my country, a respect for its institutions, a respect for the law, but most importantly a respect and tolerance for my fellow citizens, garnished with self reliance, a thirst for knowledge and education and all tempered by
a concern about how other people perceived me.
Middle class these ignorant twonks are not.
These pundits who make these insipid observations should get out more.
Use London buses and local trains out of the rush hour when that other section of society crawls out from under their rocks.
Yes every one on your rush hour commuter train to the Home counties is middle class you fools.
Posted by Adrian Romford on February 8, 2008 12:48 AM
Report this comment I have worked but don't anymore. I'm on long term benefit but studying part time. I don't know if I will ever be able to work because of current attitudes to bipolar disorder, which I have, as well as the obvious problems which it presents. I never got a job interview if I was honest about my medical history. It hurts to be described as 'the workshy underbelly surviving on benefits'. It's actually quite hard work surviving on benefits. I think most people would much rather they were in a position not to have to rely on them, whilst very thankful that they are there. I try to give what I can back to society in whatever way I can. I contribute a lot to charity since most of my clothes books etc come from charity shops, I also did voluntary work before my studying started. I listen to Radio 4 quite a lot.
Posted by Ali on February 8, 2008 12:07 AM
Report this comment Of course we aren't all Middle class but even so
those of us who genuinely are middle class still
have the right to have a radio station that serves
OUR needs rather than being forced to listen to
one that pumps out low grade mind numbing
working class drivel.
Radio 4 serves our needs just as other channels
serve other sections of the demographic.
Enlightened pluralism not dull, unsatisfactory,
one size must fit all even when it doesn't,
uniformity is the way to please all the different
sections of the audience.
Posted by Jenny Day on February 7, 2008 11:34 PM
Report this comment No! the truth is we are all serfs but the politicians, would define this as predudiced and politicaly incorrect, so they are going to call us all middle class, although to maintain a stanard of living is going to proove difficult, middle class, sounds better and will give us all a feeling of superiority but as there is no working class, who can we feel superior too.
Posted by Royston Amphlett on February 7, 2008 11:18 PM
Report this comment British. Public school. University. Charterred Accountant. Lived in USA 10 years. Own 4,500 sq.ft "mansion". Own 45 acres woodland. Enjoy hunting. Raced motorcycles. Married girl straight from Mississippi trailer park. Rose to professional level racer. Crashed. Paralysed. Paraplegic. Wheelchair. Work full time as accountant. Money not a problem. Never will have own kids, but have 2 step-kids.
Love the kids. Love the wife. Love my life.
....class is so utterly insignificant to me right now....
Posted by Mark Brereton, Rome, GA USA on February 7, 2008 11:11 PM
Report this comment Jane Garvey and the rest of the beeb are all laft wing with chips on their shoulders, to echo Andrew House, 6.12 a.m. She was the same on 5Live, same old leftie crap. I'm surprised, since she's married to A. Childs of 'working Lunch', who must know a bit about capitalism. You'd ve thought some would have rubbed off. The beeb will soon sink due to them only showing support for the ZaNuLab, yet the blogosphere is so full of people who despise them.
Can't come soon enough for me - they represent or are of interest to around 25% of people in UK now. Down to 5% if eastenders disappears.
And please people, stop referring to 'Hard working families' - we all are, but I get a nasty image of the cyclops whenever I hear it, and it is not pleasant.
Posted by Nick Dickinson on February 7, 2008 10:22 PM
Report this comment What comes below middle class? Most of the middle class today are working to pay their way in life and to support the great unwashed - does that now make them working class?
The old working class has now all but disappeared and has been replaced by the sponging class and the gangsta class.
The only ones that seem to be relatively unscathed are the upper class who are still there, but are slowly being infiltrated by overpaid NuLabs.
Posted by Daisy Chain on February 7, 2008 9:14 PM
Report this comment I think Rob, NW6, gives the best classification of what you find in the UK.
Personally, I'm happy to live abroad where I don't run across class-obsessed people all the time as I did when I studied in Manchester and worked in London.
There are so many pathetically bored people in the UK who think getting drunk at the weekend is the only option, who have no interests apart from that and who are obsessed by what people will think of them, forcing them to spend income they don't have on things they don't need in the hope of being categorised as something they aren't that I'd rather leave the country.
There's only one guy I know here who boasts about the next car he's got and how much money he's spending on his property and guess what - he's English. He's also the worst-educated man I happen to know. He thinks money will make him 'classy'. I think his manners show him up to be lacking in something.
Again and again, this topic of conversation crops up and you all thrash about like fish being fed in a pond. You're obsessed. And you're so pitiful.
Posted by Tina on February 7, 2008 9:06 PM
Report this comment Whatever 'class' may have meant in the past, it is obvious that there is now hardly anything (speech, wealth, taste in food and drink, books read, music listened to)that fixes the population into such watertight compartments.
Talk of class conflict is much the same as talk of conflict between the sexes - so much mischievous rubbish. The melting of class barriers began a long time ago, and many of us would have difficulty in deciding what class we belong to.
I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not - strict divisions might be a necessary part of a stable society. This is, I suspect, another attempt by the press to 'stir things up'. TAKE NOTE: any sort of social antagonism makes good copy for the press, but is bad for the rest of us.
Posted by Priscus on February 7, 2008 9:00 PM
Report this comment If you speak with a local dialect or with an accent you can never hope to be classed "middleclass" and that therefore rules out 98% of the population.
Class comes with breeding and the way you speak,deport yourself and dress and the quality of your manners.
This is sadly lacking in most people in this country,in fact it is the burgeoning expansion of the working class and the underclass beneath them which has taken place thanks to the iniquitous tax system aimed at the middle class that has propelled them and the underclass into assumed middle class status - but class,like breeding,cannot be "purchased".
A member of the true middle classes in this country is a rare individual.
Posted by alan maddox on February 7, 2008 8:44 PM
Report this comment I am definitely not middle class and I enjoy Radio 4. Maybe it's more about intelligence than class.
Posted by judy on February 7, 2008 8:26 PM
Report this comment I find such a remark as having more to do with the phoney guilt of the presenter who probably is troubled that she is not being socially diverse enough, rather than reflecting anything about the true audience of radio 4. It is an excellent service available for all, that is all that is necessary to know, not the shape, income or cultural savy-ness of it's audience. Yet it would be just typical of the presenters at Radio 4 to chip away at one of the best things in our media, chipping away until finally the dumb down of "re-brand" the station. Then the same people start the same process at Radio 3.
Posted by jessie on February 7, 2008 8:21 PM
Report this comment Alas, all the comments seem to be coshed in
traditional prejudice. These artificial values run
deep. It is hard to eradicate the built-in concept
of 'Upstairs, Downstairs', it appears, even among
those who are lucky to just have a 'Downstairs'
today, there is a mental block.
Living in European capitals and other towns and
cities, I find it refreshing that people are
respected as individuals, on their own personal
merits and concepts of class structure seem to
be quite alien. Everybody appears to struggle to
educate themselves and improve themselves but
they are not made to wear badges in the process.
Nor do they expect to be singled out for respect
or merit.
There may still be more nationalism in Europe
than in the UK and this is based on the Euro
brand of socialism. Ironically, this brand does
not permit the inclusion of 'the outsider'. Thus,
the fate of immigrants, refugees, etc., is always
on a knife edge. There is a quaint kind of
indignation about these categories. While Britain
thinks positively and recognises the busiess
potential, the foreigners bring in, Europeans fail
to develop a vision in this direction.
I live each day with new-born amazement at
some of the overt narrow-mindedness in the
streets and institutions. Though it is hard to
pronounce on, there is a curious factor. Here in
Spain, as I had observed over almost three years
in South Germany, there is an apparent scorn of
money, endeavour and the pursuit of material
things among the nation at large. Thus, the idea
of regarding 'unwanted aliens' as generators of
wealth does not enter their minds. The 'aliens'
are left to fester and strive with no reward in
sight on the basis that they start out at such an
inferior level, being aliens, that they could never
possibly achieve equality with the nation's people
even in a lifetime.
This naive as well as negative conscience, in
Europe,pervades most areas of life contray to our
approach in the UK or the US. Take consumer
rights, for instance. This is the darkest area in
Europe. Money doesn't buy and the seller is
almost invariably hostile and unpleasant. At
worst, which is frequent, the seller becomes
aggressive and totally negative, unable to
recognise consumers' right to complain, obtain
justice or remedy to the problem in question.
In Germany, your Bank Manager will advise you
to take out a couple of insurance policies on the
first day you open a current account. These are
to do with various level of 'fault' and 'culpability'.
It is too complex for this space but without the
lawyers supplied by insurance companies,
normal life in Germany is impossible. One learns
that quite rapidly.
In Spain, on the other hand, such insurance
protection is still almost unknown although
options are sprouting in the cities. The culture is
much more macho and complaints of all degrees
tend to be treated with irony - bullying which
they call 'mobbing'. There is the attitude that a
Spanish lawyer would be loath to prosecute a
fellow Spaniard, however at fault, against a poxy
foreigner, however grieved.
27 countries now form the Europe Union. It is a
formidable task to learn to recognise each
other's strengths and weaknesses. It is a
struggle worth pursuing. Each country, by
nature, will have boxed itself for centuries into
its own cultural norms and mentality. As the
continent shrinks and cross country
opportunities increase, we are still at the
introduction stage - one with the other. Of
course, we don't understand each other's foibles
and get quite frustrated when we find ourselves
surrounded by a group of aliens who don't speak
one's language philosophically nor
psychologically.
So, it is a hard road to climb but, with goodwill,
there is, undoubtedly, a lot for all of us to gain.
For 'class' read 'culture'.
Posted by Astrid on February 7, 2008 8:01 PM
Report this comment My family can barely afford a months food so we definately aren't middle-class. I listen to radio 4 regularly, I enjoy the plays and womens hour. Radio 4 isn't just for the middle-class although much of its programming does seem to be aimed at those with money.
Posted by Amanda Regan on February 7, 2008 7:53 PM
Report this comment In answer to Mr Charles Crasby and Boudicca- I thought "Chavs" were all fans or agents of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez!
As for Class, I am in a class of my own- though whether that be good or bad, I leave for others to decide!
Just being an illegitimate descendant of the last (elected)King of Poland might make me upperclass - though I doubt many Poles or Mrs Bree Harding would agree!!
All good clean fun,eh!
Posted by Michael Martin-Smith on February 7, 2008 7:12 PM
Report this comment I love America on February 7, 2008 6:17 PM
You got me! My name is Bree, and I am a bored upper middle class housewife!
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 6:27 PM
Report this comment I wasn't aware ingerland had any class at all.
Posted by paul atherton on February 7, 2008 6:23 PM
Report this comment Smug Bree Harding, are you really 'upper middle class'? Somehow I think you might have better things to do with your time than to spend so much of it on this message board if you were, e.g. lunching, shopping, the hairdresser, dinner parties, foreign holidays, taking the country air, riding, hunting - or are you just another, bored middle class housewife?
Posted by I love America on February 7, 2008 6:17 PM
Report this comment In response to a certain earlier comment:
Of course I am upper middle class.
My husband earns over £120-000 p/a through his work as a sucessful surgeon, and my property development company and stud farm earns me over £600-000 p/a
My children go to an exclusive private school and are looked after at home by that fashionable household appliance - the eastern European nanny.
I don't lift a finger at home - I let the servants do all the work! When they step out of line, I send them off to Harrods in the rain to queue for expensive new luxury goods. I don't even set the clock in my Aston Martin!
I am sometimes prone to headaches, but then that is what comes from drinking nothing but expensive wine!
I am intolerent of other cultures!
I am so happy being Bree!
As one wag put it, it's like living in a flower filled meadow!
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 6:12 PM
Report this comment It is far more difficult to define societal 'ranking' when people possess such diverse and wide ranging values.
I would argue that (to use the terrible label and phrase) so-called 'WAGS' have the wealth of the middle class, but often the manners and ideals of an under-class.
Posted by Rachael on February 7, 2008 6:05 PM
Report this comment I'd hate to become predictable!
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 4:28 PM
Being predictable is terribly middle crass. That is why the middle crasses are the backbone of society.
Shock... Horror!
Mrs Heavenly told me that we are middle crass because we are not poor at the moment, but she is young and European, so for her it is about income.
That is the first time that I have been accused of that and I have been accused of most things. I plead not guilty even though I listen to Rad 4, like fine wine and drive a Mercedes hippy van.
La honte!!!!!!!!!
PS
You are disappointing all of your fans with this one Bree. Come on, this is just not smug enough.
PPS
God, or whatever you want to call IT is Pure Ecstatic Love. No judgement, no punishment, total compassion and nothing to do with any religion anywhere, anytime or any book.
Cannot wait for the posts about Bishop Bean and Sharon's law. Goodnight Britain!!!
Posted by Old Nick Heavenly on February 7, 2008 5:47 PM
Report this comment There are two classes.
The ones I like.
The ones I don't like.
Years have taught me that one has nothing to do with background, money (earnt or inherited) or location and everything to do with politeness and manners.
I've met the rudest Ladies, the politest loo-scrubbers and everything else in between. It doesn't really matter.
Posted by Laura on February 7, 2008 5:42 PM
Report this comment Are we all middle class now?
No. The old, middle and lower classes have
tended to merge - but the upper class remains
steadfastly there, perpetuated by the use of titles
- such as Sir and Lord etc., rather than Mr.,
Mrs.,Miss, Ms. etc. for everyone. It is this, which
will always be a reminder that a class system
still prevails. Unlike in most other countries.
Posted by Brian B.Warren on February 7, 2008 5:34 PM
Report this comment In answer to Boudicca:
It's either Council Housed And Violent or Council Housed Anti-social & Violent.
Further to my earlier comment February 7, 2008 9:03 AM.
I think it was Edward Heath who cited denim jeans as being one of the greatest influences in breaking down the class divide in Britain. Whether or not that is true I will leave others to decide.
Posted by Charles Crosby on February 7, 2008 4:37 PM
Report this comment Looking at the definitions posted on this page, I think I can safely say that I am not working class, because I do not work.
My husband is a well-paid professional, so I would presume he is middle class.
Where does that leave me?
Does one still have to have a title to be regarded as upper class?
I think I must be upper middle class.
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 4:32 PM
Report this comment Posted by Granville Bull, Huddersfield on February 7, 2008 6:53 AM
What is it you were expecting me to say, Mr Bull?
I'd hate to become predictable!
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 4:28 PM
Report this comment I went to public school, have family who were at Oxbridge, include titled, upper class & aristocratic people amongst friends, have socialised with members of various royal families over the years. I used to drink quite expensive wine and go on posh holidays. I used to have my own business, be a member of exclusive clubs and look and sound posh. Shooting, hunting and fishing were amongst my pastimes. But according to the media, I was middle class, which I always took as a derogatory term. Now, I have no money and am close to bankruptcy. The expensive pastimes and wine have gone, as has the business. I am now employed by a company staffed by Surrey and Essex moneybrokers. My boss grew up on a council estate, is very well off and has become middle class. Meanwhile, I am expecting a visit from the bailiffs. I have fallen right through middle, down to underclass, without passing 'GO'. But I still have my accent, some clothes and some of my friends. In class terms, what am I ?
Posted by Ed on February 7, 2008 4:27 PM
Report this comment If we work, I suppose we are. Although I don't think class matters much nowadays - it all changed when council tenants became able to buy their own council houses and being 'the right sort of chap' stopped being the main criterion for a well-paid job in the City. For this, the Thatcherite 80s were brilliant in the way that traditional class barriers were broken down.
I think Rob probably has the best set of definitions of the social classes. The middle classes can be divided into the well-paid professionals and the rest.
I was asked by an overseas student of my husband what social class I belonged to. I replied:
"Working class - because I work all hours God sends me" He went away even more confused than he was before he asked.
Some people say it is to do with lifestyle and tastes. Not always. For example, although I have a very good professional job, I prefer tea to coffee, beer to wine and don't particularly like caviar, lobster or champagne - I like good, ordinary, basic stuff to eat. I have terrible (according to my family!)taste in literature, preferring to read thrillers, horror, crime and similar books - I love a good (or bad!)serial killer! I don't buy designer clothes although I could afford to. I prefer to wear basic, 'wash and wear' clothes that can go into the washing machine and don't need ironing as I am too busy working and doing other things to bother with anything that needs maintenance.
One random observation I made, however, is that you can often tell a person's social by the state of their teeth. People higher up the pecking order tend, on the whole, to have better teeth. Could someone please tell that to the BBC. I notice that in East Enders and similar dramas depicting people at the lower end of the social scale, that all the cast appear to have perfect sets of pearly whites. In the interests of authenticity, perhaps some of the cast should try to develop a few blackened stumps, gaps, etc.?
Posted by Alicia on February 7, 2008 4:19 PM
Report this comment A few thoughts on class.The 'lady' my mother used to clean for (scrubbing her stone floors) who lived in a huge house in South Kensington,who did not rise until noon,who was regualrly drunk,who sold my mother second hand Daniel Neal clothes,who paid my mother £1.00 per week for six hours a week - this to include her bus fare,had no class.My mother who had three young children,three jobs and a young husband dying of cancer, has class.
Posted by Jan on February 7, 2008 4:07 PM
Report this comment In the world of the sneering comedians, and pretentious N.London pseodos, "middle class" is a phrase much used for a cheap laugh. Their is a nice irony watching Marcus Brigstocke and co pretending some imagined intellectual superiority by using the term, usually in the same sentence as "Daily Mail" to apparent comic effect. Should that be affect? The polite type of laughter may indicate a loosening of their hold on a large chunk of their audience many of whom will notice a hefty smell of self deception from the stage, never mind being somewhat creepily dated.
Posted by Peter Carr on February 7, 2008 4:02 PM
Report this comment It's a truism that the English are divided by class and that the Americans are divided by race. Like most truisms, it's true enough, except...
In America, a society supposedly not obsessed with class, where most everyone would describe him/herself as 'middle class', one finds 'yuppie bars' and 'blue-collar bars'. A commodities broker in Chicago wouldn't think of drinking in a bar frequented by mill workers, unless he was out 'slumming' with friends on a Saturday night.
In England, most everyone - farmers and professionals and the local worthies - drink in the same local.
Yes, there are class division, but middle class values have become more pervasive. If you want to look for visceral, atavistic divisions in English society, try Man U vs. City!
Posted by Jim on February 7, 2008 3:57 PM
Report this comment I think what it irritates me is the 'holier than thou
attitude of the expression 'middle class'. It really
is quite absurd. I don't wish to be placed in any
pigeon holes. So what? I hold a couple of pretty
good degrees and have a lifetime of amazing
experiences including above average travel, work
and family success. I am just an honest citizen
with my personal ambitions (not serious) and
respect all others for whatever ambitions or lack
of them they hold.
Posted by Astrid on February 7, 2008 3:45 PM
Report this comment 'middle class bent' is really code for 'middle england bent'. For sure Jane Garvey is Middle Class, with middle class tastes and attitudes, how else could she have a job at the BBC. But in this context Middle Class means people who like gardening or find 'I haven't got a clue' funny. i.e. Suburban or country people with comfortable lives, probably much like her parents. I imagine Ms Garvey lives in Islington.
Interestingly she displays the typical middle class characteristic of not actually saying what she means since she probably hidebound by a fear of seeming to be a reactionary if she openly sneers at the suburban masses.
So there you have it Jane Garvey doesn't like her parents but is too affraid to actually say so.
P.S. no not everyone is Middle Class, what sort of stupid question is that?
Posted by Jason White on February 7, 2008 3:39 PM
Report this comment What on earth does the word "chav" actually mean?
Is it short for something?
Where did it come from?
Posted by Boudicca on February 7, 2008 3:30 PM
Report this comment I've travelled a bit but never been anywhere where there was no such thing as class, or anywhere where it mattered so much as England. Hierarchies seem to be the default organisation system of the animal kingdom. Democracy should be the attempt to imagine and implement something less unjust shouldn't it?
Posted by gertrude on February 7, 2008 3:29 PM
Report this comment I am not sure what middle class is?
Both of my paren'ts died in uniform,my
father an RE-officer killed on river-
Rhine;he is now resting near Dusseldorf,grave 247, my mother medic-
killed near Red Ruth army hospital,
both brown-skin; i worked at Cowley &
served as one of the Oxford Justice &
local councillor, paid good amount of
taxes, i feel i am British, brown-skin
so is my wife a teacher in upper-
school, un-paid work for NHS, whatClas
do you think that will be? Once a great statesman Jhon Major(UK-PM 1989-
1997) it's not your class but your good-deed that counts,what did you do
for your country:Cllr Ken Tiwari(Ox-UK
Posted by Cllr Ken Tiwari (independent)Oxf-UK) on February 7, 2008 3:20 PM
Report this comment Yes, I think so, but you will not get the Marxists of NuLab to admit it, perpetuating the backward looking, damaging class war is what Social Engineering is all about. Like the majority of free thinking libertarians, I have no time for the Conservative Party of old, but the new is inclined to be more apt. NuLab on the other hand are a backward looking bunch of control freaks who put everybody in little boxes, take the moral high ground and abuse it. I consider myself no better or worse than someone who has more or less money than I, but consider myself infinitley superior to a marxist totalitarian State that deludes itself that it knows best, and see perpetuation of a pointless class war as moral justification for marginalising the 'average', not middle class, citizen.
Posted by simon butcher on February 7, 2008 3:14 PM
Report this comment True class has nothing to do with money or perceived social standing. True class comes from within and where one lives or was educated has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Posted by freda barley on February 7, 2008 3:12 PM
Report this comment Bree, that's why we're waiting to hear from you! Clearly you'll have a different idea to the rest of us. To me - as a recently retired MD of a plc group - you are , like me, working class. If, as you often claim, you work 24/7 then we're workers!
Posted by Granville Bull, Huddersfield on February 7, 2008 3:09 PM
Report this comment To Margot and Gerry on February 7, 2008 11:16 AM.
"Absolutely spot on. There's nothing worse in this country than middle class guardianista-toting lefties."
How do you tote a guardianista? You'd need the biceps of a superman.
Posted by Rob, NW6 on February 7, 2008 2:57 PM
Report this comment Before I answer this question, could someone please supply me with an up-to-date definition of the term 'middle class'?
Posted by Bree Harding on February 7, 2008 2:54 PM
Report this comment I always like the way that people always refer to being middle class as 'white'. Its like all other non white individuals are either working class or the under class. There are many professional British Indians who are doctors, lawyers, accoutants, scientists and those that own their own business ( and i am not talking about the corner shop here). It seems so strange that we are never not considered to be middle class and that only white people can be middle class.
Posted by Jai Patel on February 7, 2008 2:54 PM
Report this comment My middle is expanding, down mostly to classy claret and port.
Posted by Rear Admiral Sir Colin Pantywaist on February 7, 2008 2:46 PM
Report this comment Well, I'm certainly not middle class. I spend my
days drinking expensive wine, thinking of new ways
to spend great gobbets of cash, and watching all of
you poor middle-class yobs who actually have to
work for a living.
Posted by George Soros on February 7, 2008 2:23 PM
Report this comment Pehaps ther are not enough people with "Middle Class" aspirations.
Certainly, the agressive plebeanism displayed by so much of "The Meejuh" makes no attempt to raise social awareness, rather than the Reithian concepts that were imposed on the BBC.
Incidentally, I resent the implication that a "Liberal World View" is a neccessary part on Middle Class aspiration; we should seek to uplift all people regardless of thei world view.
Posted by C J Davison on February 7, 2008 2:16 PM
Report this comment Sorry, is there something wrong with being middle-class? Are you perhaps being "classist" against the middle-classes? There are quite a few of us you know so why shouldnt a radio station cater for a predominantly white, English speaking middle-class? Is there something wrong with that? Or should we all be totally hip-hop and R&B; INIT CLONES? Booyakasha!
Posted by Lukas Tatek on February 7, 2008 2:15 PM
Report this comment Michael Martin-Smith is wrong. God is Love, but what has it got to do with the argument.
Class is distinction, Thankfully, we have aspirations and ambitions to improve and this is why the middle class has expanded so much.
M Bianchi
Posted by margaret Bianchi on February 7, 2008 1:59 PM
Report this comment There's really only two classes of people - ones who are like you, and ones who are not like you.
The people who are not like you are all out to get you, and it is right to fear and despise them.
It doesn't matter whether they are the jobless parasites, the champagne socialists, the useless aristocrats, the rapacious financiers, the godless immigrants, or the selfish mob. If they are not like you - hate them all!!!
Posted by J2L2 on February 7, 2008 1:55 PM
Report this comment By saying middle class do we mean middle income workers?I think anybody who goes to work is working class,how can they be described as anything else?
Posted by rapley on February 7, 2008 1:40 PM
Report this comment No. There is also the workshy under-class which lives on benefits doled out at the taxpayer's expense by the NuLabour shambles described as a government.
Posted by P.F.L.Purser on February 7, 2008 1:22 PM
Report this comment and who says the English are no longer obsessed by class.....
Grow up, get a life, everyone is different, why care about what label some ones slaps on you unless you aspire to be it.
Posted by David Webster on February 7, 2008 1:16 PM
Report this comment Basically, there are those who are capable of reading for pleasure, and those who aren't.
There are those who can solve a quadratic equation, and those who cannot.
There are those who can use a small telescope to disprove Aristotle's cosmology to a class of twelve year olds, and those who cannot .
There are those who can by Art illuminate the Infinite,and those who cannot.
There are also those who can name ten Pharaohs of Ancient Egpyt, three geological Ages, a dozen Roman Emperors, five classical composers, and five moons of Uranus - and those who cannot.
ie there are the curious and the pioneers ,whose minds live,and who stretch the envelope - and the rest, whose function is to enable the Light to shine forth.
Most people bow before awkward facts.
The Mad deny them.
The Heaven-sent Genius creates new ones.
People who can do all these things,and more, can be found in all socio-economic groupings,all ages,and all countries admittedly in small numbers- and should by rights be the dominant among our species.
God is not Love, or Equality - He/She is Mind, or Nothing
Other classifications, although popular, are too trivial to matter!
We value oysters for their Pearls and humans for their Ideas.
"Man is a rope strecthed between the Ape and the Superman" -- Nietzsche
The rest is tosh
Posted by Michael Martin-Smith on February 7, 2008 1:11 PM
Report this comment To Margot and Gerry on February 7, 2008 11:16 AM.
Absolutely spot on. There's nothing worse in this country than middle class guardianista-toting lefties. Absolute pits of the earth. They have never lived in the real world, a council estate or come face to face with their little socialist creations, the chavnik, but are so patronising and boorish it makes you sick.
Posted by Andy on February 7, 2008 12:59 PM
Report this comment Being middle class requires that you are
neither upper or lower class. When was
the last time you met someone from the
middle class whose behaviour warranted
their status?
Posted by Rick on February 7, 2008 12:55 PM
Report this comment A couple of comments above illustrate the utter vapidity of this very 'English' and parochial impression of the phrase 'middle class', which to my mind is completely outdated as it defeats accurate definition and thus means different things to different people.
" No we are not. In my opinion, middle class people are educated, polite, they appreciate classical music, literature and art, they follow current affairs and they do professional jobs.
Posted by Mike on February 7, 2008 8:31 AM
Report this comment
Education is the definer of Middle Class, allied with the 'correct opinion' (Liberal world view) ally this to a good job, good salary and there you have it.
The old working class have become the slob class and have been replaced with newcomers.
Posted by Margot & Gerry on February 7, 2008 8:27 AM
Report this comment
"However, if 'middle-class' means being careful with hard-earned money, not living ostentatiously, being cultured and informed in terms of art, music, reading, history, and having a real interest in the world around one via informative programmes on TV and radio............then I am 'middle-class'
Posted by S Forsyth (Edinburgh) on February 7, 2008 8:26 AM"
The truly asinine assumption that working class people are never interested in classical music, literature, don't follow current affairs and are slobs is just ignorant nonsense ! The Welsh and Scots don't make this ridiculous artificial divide - it is only the divisive English who do this.
The best illustration of this is how the Welsh Assembly Government spend money as though it were going out of fashion on the Millennium Centre for opera and the Welsh Botanic Gardens. Nobody challenges that as being 'too middle class' or 'elitist' as these useless labels aren't used.
Yet in England money is sucked out of the Arts Council, no doubt because someone has given it the meaningless label of 'middle-class' to give to the Olympics, which are perceived to be 'inclusive' - another Orwellian word.
Yet the money spent on them is being siphoned off from grass roots sport which would benefit everyone ! So do yourselves a favour and consign this 'middle class' phrase to the dustbin of history, before it is used to ruin Radio 4, Radio 3, the Barbican, the Bristol Old Vic theatre school and what remains of the arts and cultural life of this country. !
Posted by Working Class Welshman, and proud of it... on February 7, 2008 12:51 PM
Report this comment This is more about taste then class.
The programing on Radio 4 is designed for people wanting to listen to something intresting/informative and often educational.
You can enjoy these sorts of programs no matter what class your from as long as your intrested in them. The idea that the station is to middle class because of this is crazy ! It might be a fair point to say that it is likely that people of a more privalaged background listen to the station, but thats because they want to. The masses/Chav's ect who would have no intrest in learning or informative debate would rather read the Sun and listen to Radio 1
There are plenty of other stations that broadcast brainless rubbish 24/7 radio 4 is good as it is.
Posted by Tom Harrison on February 7, 2008 12:48 PM
Report this comment My grandfather.
Born 1898 Ireland
Irish Guards(private). Fought in both World Wars. Injured. Lost one son on D-Day.
Post war worked for GPO and lived in council housing.
To him, class, apart from having clean shoes was the condition of your hair, teeth, nails and the whiteness of your eyes .i.e. 'breeding' - just the way you would look at a horse.
A rich man is just a poor man with money and money doesn't give you class or "a class".
If you work for it you are working class. If you have a surplus of it you have it at someone else's cost.
He like many must be turning in their graves at the sacrifices made for the millions of idiots living in this country today - i don't count myself nor any of you out - after all, we put up with this bulls***.
There is only one class today.
Idiot.
Posted by WhoIsMoreEnglish...GordonOrElizabethR on February 7, 2008 12:44 PM
Report this comment Do you all, like me, enjoy that wonderfully middle class programme called East Enders?
If so, have you enjoyed their finely tuned accents and perfect manners?
But of course if the BBC is worried that it is not showing enough working class programmes it could of course broadcast repeat showings of Nazi or Communist rallies. They were fairly working class and would undoubtedly inspire the great unwashed.
Then there is of course Jonathan Ross, that erudite, lucid, academic and clearly insightful commentator whom the BBC promote as 'entertainment'. If he is 'middle class' I am a giraffe!
Posted by Andy G on February 7, 2008 12:41 PM
Report this comment I grew up in a five-bedroom detached house in a small Derbyshire market town in the Peak District. My dad had been to university (UMIST), something which 10% of his generation had done. Like fully 97% of people in Derbyshire, I went to my local comprehensive where I got straight As at A-level, and from there to Manchester University, where I got the top first in my year. In all that time I had never really heard people I knew use the terms 'middle-class' or 'working-class'. People took their sense of identity from the town they were from, social status within that town came second. Even though I was at a good university and from quite a nice town, no-one, and I mean no-one around me sounded like anyone on Radio 4, or just about any journalist you hear come on to the radio or TV.
Later I found myself working for a small company in Oxford, where most people had been to Oxford University. Finally I had met people who could be on Radio 4. They turned to me once and said 'you're working clarse aren't you?'. Another time I was told 'You can't be that intelligent because your Dad can't be that intelligent otherwise he would have got a job in the south.' Now I understood the class system. By being from the north or midlands (over half the country), I am automatically seen as being socially and intellectually inferior. It is like being from the wrong tribe in some African country. A German friend who visited told me (based on other experiences that he had heard, not mine) 'it's like a kind of racism'.
People need to decide what middle-class means. Does it mean an average person, in which case we are talking about someone who still doesn't go to any university at all, not even a 'mickey mouse' one, or do we mean the 7% of people who are privately educated, or the 2% (at most) of people who go to Oxbridge.
Posted by Matt D. on February 7, 2008 12:31 PM
Report this comment One wonders if Jane Garvey considers herself to be 'hideously white' - and, if so, what will she do about it?
Posted by Lickyalips on February 7, 2008 12:29 PM
Report this comment Apart from politicians trying to build a constituency and lazy journalists does anyone actually care?
Whether you consider yourself middle class or working class, it is a choice; no one in this country is held back by what class they were born into. Middle class occupations such as the professions are open to anyone prepared to study and achieve the entry requirements. Many children of middle class parents choose what were once working class jobs.
The only barrier to entry is that for the aristocracy you need to be wealthy enough to buy a title, but once you have the money that too is open to all comers.
Posted by MarkE on February 7, 2008 12:25 PM
Report this comment The Class system is not exclusive to the UK. I think it is a fantastic system. One can move between classes given a few generations.
The problem is we are getting far far too much of the lower classes rammed down our throat in the media with their gutter behaviour. This disgracefulness is becoming normalised.
It was much better when TV presenters spoke the Queen's English. It gave one a sense of pride in the country.
Posted by Nick Bournemouth on February 7, 2008 12:18 PM
Report this comment What a load of tosh this is, unless you are wealthy enough that you do not have to go to work then you are the fortunate class, all the rest who have to go out and earn a living are working class, the clue is in the word having to WORK.
A lot of the so called middle class as they like to call themselves are pompous twits living on buckets of debt to try and impress the neighbours with their new bought on credit latest toy.
I ran my own successful business and got a lot of the trappings but everything I had was paid for I kept my feet firmly on the ground.
I lived on an ( their words, not mine) executive development of 16 substantial 5 bed detached houses standing in half an acre, and apart from one other guy they were so stuck up it was unreal, yet despite all their la de da ways they were living way beyond their means on heaps of debt.
You would watch them on July 31st at 1130pm going to the local car dealers to try and be the first back to the estate with their new reg car,
it was so pathetic.
I never used to buy new cars I would buy demonstrators and pocket the cash difference, and had a private plate, so one year I got my car at 8pm went for a meal and arrived back at 1205, the look on their faces the next morning was priceless.
I find most of those who aspire to this middle class crap to be hollow, lacking in substance and generally a pain in the ass.
Posted by mike williams in Bangkok on February 7, 2008 12:12 PM
Report this comment What a lot of rubbish! If we are all middle class does that mean that the 6 million (12%)long term benfit claimants are actually not in the UK?
Posted by Jim Currie on February 7, 2008 12:09 PM
Report this comment
BBC TV channel 1 is too working class.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 12:02 PM
Report this comment
After all the outrage about the bad
spelling here I am horrified with this.
It is spelt CRASS.
Over to you, Bree!
Posted by Old Nick Heavenly on February 7, 2008 12:00 PM
Report this comment It seems pretty clear that the old definitions no longer apply, especially now that high targets for university entrance mean that you could have a first class degree and still be barely able to tie your shoelaces.
So we need some new ones. There have been some good suggestions so far, but i would identify four groups...
Upper class - the landed aristocracy, tiny, dwindling, not working (unless in some sham directorship possibly) and more or less irrelevant to everyone else.
Professional class - well-educated, literate, skilled workers with relatively high income.
Middle class - Most other people...workers, but not necessarily skilled or highly qualified.
Underclass - Those who choose not to work and can regularly be seen (where i live anyway), sorting through the carrier bags outside charity shops picking out the best stuff.
However, having said all that, to judge anyone on the basis of what class you think they are is reprehensible. So what use are these classes other that to give ourselves a sense of belonging to a group. And if you need that, you've got more problems than what class you are.
Posted by Rob, NW6 on February 7, 2008 11:54 AM
Report this comment Are we all middle class now? Certainly not, if you include the yob class. Now there are Middle class and the Yob Class.
Posted by Sridhar Rao on February 7, 2008 11:42 AM
Report this comment To:- Pinkie on February 7, 2008 10:57 AM
'We were getting there once. Under Thatcher we were becoming classless, just like any other country. '
The nearest the UK ever came to braking down social division was in post war years up to the 1960s.
I don't know whether you were in the UK in the 1980s,but the Thatcher years saw the return of class divide as we witnessed on the streets of many of our cities.
Thatcher years were about divide and rule.
Posted by ExTory on February 7, 2008 11:38 AM
Report this comment How remote can the BBC get - well to the tune of £135 pa extorted from me !
Sure there is a bigger middle class nowadays - thanks to Maggie. Richer Guardian types hated her because she liberated ordinary folk from council estates , trade union tyranny and created a new generation of shareholders. Guardian types much preferred and still prefer people to know their place. How dare ordinary folk own their homes, shares and jet off to places that Guardian/BBC types used to monopolise ?
Labour of course has created a welfare dependent 25% at the bottom. Trapped on socialist housing estates, educated in **** state schools and turned out illiterate and innumerate. Imprisoned by family breakdown and hooked on benefit.
We now live in a more divided society than ever thanks to a decade of Labour. We have racial ghettoes in all our large cities alongside impoverished white 1950's council estates. All these groups are condemned/trapped in poorly paid jobs, no jobs or welfare. Breeding grounds for resentment, crime and terrorism.
But the BBC, living high on the hog and at MY cost fails to see any of that. It paints a world of well educated people all living happliy in a multi cultural environment. What tosh !
Posted by Mikea on February 7, 2008 11:38 AM
Report this comment There's a load of total b****cks being spouted on this thread today, actually this is a serious subject, as it has serious consequences for the way we live.
We live in age where equality is the holy grail, tolerance and inclusion is the mantra spouted by the movers and shakers, the great and the good.
Funny thing is, it is these self same people who consider themselves to be morally superior and a class above the masses. They instinctively believe they know what is best and ram it down the throat of ignorant below decks.
I call this all knowing superior class - champagne socialism, the do as I say, not what I do brigade. Strangely it is these people who are preserving the status quo, (they remain in charge of the trough and partake accordingly)
This is nothing new of course except we are in a different ball-game now with the influx of a whole population of others. (not yet classified - but definitely viewed by the great and the good more favourably than the former working class..
I'm sure there must be books on the subject - just needs updating.
Posted by Margot and Gerry on February 7, 2008 11:16 AM
Report this comment Thats impossible if 6 million citizens are living on state benefits. Only 4 million people qualify as middle class by making more than £36,000 gorss per annum. Anyway the upper classes dont talk about money...guilt complex? The discreet charm of the bourgeoisie divides society into haves and havenots. Class warfare in Britain is an English tradition providing social discrimination. Middle class is believing that Britain is a classless society.....Britain is a plutocracy governed as an oligarchy probably with less than 100 people in charge...not necessarily living in this country.
Posted by richard bond on February 7, 2008 11:08 AM
Report this comment there are two schools of thought..
one believes class is judged by living standards and
wealth and the other by values and conduct.
I subscribe to the latter even though I am also fairly
financially middle class. In terms of presentation,
language and sentiment this radio station may well
be 'middle class'.
Posted by YR on February 7, 2008 11:05 AM
Report this comment
It is not about class but values, education and intelligence. Estate agents are seen as 'Middle Class' but despite their middle class voices and pre-prepared scripts they are, lets face it, frequently thick. On the other hand, a plasterer I know is one of the most well read people I know, intellectually more stimulating than most of my more 'professional' friends.
That's why it is only fair that the BBC which is publicly funded provide at least some sort of a service to target the educated classes (not middle classes) and not reduce everything to the level of semi-literate social detritus.
I bet the person accusing the BBC radio 4 of being too middle class has a middle class job.
Posted by Dave on February 7, 2008 11:01 AM
Report this comment We are heading for a New World Order, with a stable 2 class system - the 'lower class' serving the elitist 'ruling class'. There is now marked economic inequality in Britain, with the rich elite (and by those I mean, rich city bankers, hedge funders, property developers,magnates, Director Generals,foreign investors, for example, and certain former politicians like Tony Blair). These 'super rich' extract increasingly high fractions of global wealth. Does some economic prosperity feed down to the 'lower' strata? Perversely, the former middle class moves down into the lower class. Wealth transfer is not between the rich to the poor as the lower classes now serve the elitist upper class via consumerism and materialism which pacify, distract and control the masses. How many of the former 'middle classes' are now beholden to banks, mortgage lenders, credit companies, equity sharks etc? Today's hiking of mortgage rates before interest rates are likely to drop, is one recent example. We are now dependent on government and business sectors for survival. In fact, it's not about 'class' any more. It's about distribution of power to the hands of the super wealthy who in turn dictate the way we live by controlling and manipulating social, political and economic systems globally. It is creating economic apartheid. In the New World Order, championed by Tony Blair and others of his ilk on the World Stage for some years, all systems have integrated to serve the ruling class elites and the corporate state, not ordinary people. I also agree that the majority of Britons are in denial about the immoral system they are trapped in. The same thing is happening in America.
Posted by Point of View on February 7, 2008 10:57 AM
Report this comment We were getting there once. Under Thatcher we
were becoming classless, just like any other
country.
Thanks to Labour were are back to the old class
divide - at least there's the working class and the
welfare class.
Posted by Pinkie on February 7, 2008 10:57 AM
Report this comment The working class are, by definition, here to work, the middle classes supervise them and the upper classes take all the profits and practice noblesse oblige. As it should be.
Posted by Theo on February 7, 2008 10:57 AM
Report this comment What about an old definition: Knowing the maiden names of your four great grandmothers makes you middle class. I know, off hand, the names of three of mine but the one I don't know is of the branch one would, in terms of income, profession, social standing, be considered middle class, whereas the ones I know well would be considered in the same terms, as working class.
Posted by P. Harvey on February 7, 2008 10:54 AM
Report this comment If 'middle-class' means being able to afford to live in your own home, then very few of my generation are middle-class. Even those who have worked hard and got good degress and good jobs.
Posted by Matt D. on February 7, 2008 10:53 AM
Report this comment Thanks to capitalism everyone is wealthier than 20, 50 or 100 years ago.
The "hump" in the bell curve of wealth has also shifted towards the middle, so the middle class has expanded in numbers. Again, this is thanks to capitalism.
Posted by von Mises on February 7, 2008 10:50 AM
Report this comment I bloody hope not. I find most of them to be slightly obnoxious individuals, whose attitude to sex, drug taking, and fun in general, is so far out of touch with those from high and working class people, that it’s just comical.
On a serious note, it could certainly be argued that we are. We no longer have vast amounts of people living in squalor, child mortality from malnutrition is almost non-existent, life is no longer cheap, health care are available to everyone, and there is now education for all children, and indeed anyone who wants it. It's certainly an improvement over the working class people from the past.
Posted by Stuart Page on February 7, 2008 10:48 AM
Report this comment The "middle class" is the "new working class" because the traditional working class is living mostly on benefits! Bwahaha.
Posted by MeanEyedCat on February 7, 2008 10:26 AM
Report this comment No we are not 'all middle class'. The concept has changed. It clearly is not refering to middle,ie.average ,incomes.
Nowadays it usually refers to a narrow group of high earning professionals who have succeeded in ring-fencing themselves from the masses.Succeeded in barring entry to their professions to most people and because of the stranglehold they have on best schools they have succeeded in creating a self-perpetuating elite.
Class is and always has been economically determined. Watching ballet and opera on BBC2 and listening to Radio4 no longers grants you access to the club.Only very high earners need apply.
Posted by Dave Hedges on February 7, 2008 10:16 AM
Report this comment
No.
What's is amusing about class is that both social groups above and below the middle class describe themselves as 'middle class'.
Being middle class (of which I am not) is about family background,education,employment,financial security,hobbies (things that one does..) etc.
Unfortunately your social class is something you are born into and can't grow out of.
But then is clas that important?
Posted by White Van Man on February 7, 2008 10:12 AM
Report this comment what does middle class mean exactly?
Posted by Commoner on February 7, 2008 10:10 AM
Report this comment Radio 4 is an oasis of interesting, intelligent programmes covering a wide variety of subjects that should appeal to all. Class or background has nothing to do with it. I listended to R4 when I had no money and I still listen now I'm better off and I'll probably be listening when I'm struggling on a pension. Those hyper-sensitive souls who can't cope with listening to well-spoken people can stick to local radio. Keep Radio 4 gutter-free
Posted by pat smith-foster on February 7, 2008 10:09 AM
Report this comment The people who listen to Radio 4 are those who want to learn more of the world about them. Like my father, a now retired factory supervisor.
Posted by Tina on February 7, 2008 10:02 AM
Report this comment I would have said that most people in the public eye are rather ignorant working class. Even the BBC, despite its notorious far left political bias, used to have announcers who could speak correct English but no longer. Look at the so called stars - whether film or football - virtually none of them can put together a simple sentence. Whatever one may think of the middle class at least they taught their children to speak and understand English. Of course the (deliberate?) destruction by the current government of the education system has not helped.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 10:00 AM
Report this comment It was Harold Wilson, not the ludicrous prescott, who said "we are all middle class now." He was referring to the narrow definition of having the feeling that we were feeling more prosperous. The BBC used to be the repository of middle class attitudes but this has not been the case now for some years.
Radio 4, for example, has become so bent on becoming all things to all men, that it has trailers for its own programmes now. These programmes in turn are less informative and educational, more interactive and 'relevant'. Even the formerly interesting PM programme now informs us that it wants to know what we think, and there's even a blog to show how 'right on' the programme is.
We shall all be middle class when we all subcribe to the codes of conduct that once characterised that section of the population. It's hardly a question of working class people drinking 'posh wines'. I can't see a nation of middle class people out there: what with fewer books in libraries, dumbing down in every sector of our lives from the BBC Proms to our educational 'system' and huge numbers of feral youths terrorising our towns and cities.
Posted by David on February 7, 2008 9:51 AM
Report this comment We are all human beings!
Posted by Jonathan on February 7, 2008 9:46 AM
Report this comment Three words, three classes....
twit
snob
chav
Posted by Chris Thomas on February 7, 2008 9:45 AM
Report this comment Who can afford expensive wine on the pittance Brown leaves us? I buy my claret at Tescos!
Posted by Andy on February 7, 2008 9:45 AM
Report this comment Whatever the failings of the old
class divide, it certainly has a new
relevance in the 21st Century.
Lower class = basically illiterate
and innumerate with no prospects,
and usually debt-ridden.
Middle class = basically literate
and numerate with some prospects,
and usually debt-ridden.
Upper class = literate and numerate
with endless prospects, and not
debt-ridden.
That about covers it.
Posted by Matthias Gris on February 7, 2008 9:44 AM
Report this comment The concept that we're all middle class is 1960s idealism. If everyone became better educated we should all become the same. Tony Crosland's famous attack on grammar schools was meant to break down one of the last bastions of class privilege. Sadly, the project has backfired. Except where there are grammar schools the middle classes have reinforced their class privilege by deserting the state education system.
After 40 years of benefit induced degeneration we've ended up with a two tier working class. The working class that work and pay their way. And a workign class that doesn't work and has no intention of doing so.
Posted by Kent Training on February 7, 2008 9:44 AM
Report this comment If we were to apply only two criteria,respect and manners,then the answer is definitely,no!
Posted by EX-BRAT on February 7, 2008 9:32 AM
Report this comment It depends how you define it. Using the contemporary media definition of "working class" i.e. people who don't have jobs, then we are mostly middle class.
But using any kind of sensible definition of "working class", I would say that, as has always been the case, the majority of us are working class.
Posted by Dondon on February 7, 2008 9:31 AM
Report this comment Why do we still cling to long-dead notions such as the middle and working classes? It is true that we still have old-style aristocrats but mercifully, there are very few of them. The rest of us fall into two new classes: The educated/skilled service providers and the brain-dead/chav/thug/spongers. (Can anyone devise a pair of catchy, compact sobriquets?)
As with the old class structure, the boundary is blurred and some people who are actually brain-dead get into positions of influence. This has led to the decline in standards across large areas of our nation’s life. Sadly, it only takes a few to instigate widespread decline and the most dangerous places to have such people are in politics and the in media.
Markets and businesses are global and so is employment. More and more, the world is interested in the intellectual capital of individuals and countries. The money and material possessions that appear in their accounts is less relevant now. Some countries and some people will emerge as enlightened beacons while others will regress to the primitive and medieval. Radio 4 is a beacon; let us not snuff it out.
Posted by Castalian on February 7, 2008 9:30 AM
Report this comment We have 3 classes:
Upper class - those who don't have to
work
Working class - those who do have to
work
Under class - the scum who won't and will
never work and see it as a right to
scrounge (this obviously does not include
the genuinely sick, disabled, pensioners
or those who want to work but can't get a
job)
Posted by Kate on February 7, 2008 9:30 AM
Report this comment If people deny they are middle class, then they are, if they say they are now middle class then they are petit bourgeoisie or self deluding working class.
The truth is, middle class is a state of mind, leading to a particular life style.
Trouble in Britain, the middle classes have lost their self confidence since the thirties, it was the War what dun it !
Posted by Dave Morris on February 7, 2008 9:21 AM
Report this comment Certainly the boundaries have blurred - there are more wealthy from working class backgrounds and more poor from middleclass roots.
From a consumer perspective, retailers are probably more interested in our credit history than our background or job.
However, for employers eg media, banking and medicine still seem only to allow a 'certain' type of person to get to the top - although thats not to say they don't deserve it.
There is no question though that money aside a huge gulf exists between your tattooed, beer drinking football supporter to your cricket supporting, wine drinking lawyer.
Posted by James on February 7, 2008 9:19 AM
Report this comment BBC radio operates so many stations that, assuming an audience is active
for it as a whole, how it arranges its output is principally a matter of
management.
If it was being claimed that tastes were not being catered for then that is a
line of criticism.
Social and Economic Classes can be defined in almost any ways which is of
use; evident that most definitions are self serving.
There is probably a greater consensus in the USA as to what the Middle
Class is. I suspect the americans and others in complex, modern societies
delude themselves when they imagine themselves to have a classless
society.
Many comments suggest that what those who loathe their fellow men
need is a Contemptible Class.
Posted by Quietzapple on February 7, 2008 9:15 AM
Report this comment There is no way in which the British are all middle class. One of the key characteristics of the bourgeoisie is retaining personal control and out of debt. It could, in fact, be said the Brits have never been more uniformly proletariat.
Posted by Dr John Cameron on February 7, 2008 9:11 AM
Report this comment The BBC should not be referring to their audience segments by class at all in this modern age. This is so unPC on the part of the Left so often accused of being in charge at the Corporation as to be quite surreal.
If we are all Middle Class now - why do we need the Labour Party - other than to create, maintain and expand an Under ("Working" being a misnomer) Class which will vote for them - so they can tax the expanded Middle Class (aka Hard Working Families in politico-speak) to death to pay for their own votes?
Posted by simon coulter on February 7, 2008 9:10 AM
Report this comment
Class has new categories:
1) The uninformed class
2) The deluded class
3) The informed class
The uninformed don't want to know. The deluded class believes what the media pours in their troughs - pigs swill.
The informed know they are being lied to from every angle and also know the writing is on the wall regarding enslavement within the Soviet/Fascist EU Superstate.
All the rest is meaningless levels of affluence.
Posted by Charles Crosby on February 7, 2008 9:03 AM
Report this comment "Middle class" is a myth, and an invention of snobbery.
There is, and never has been, any such thing. There are only two classes - the working class who have to, and the upper class who don't. "Middle class" is an invention of those who know they are not upper class, but who are ashamed to be identified as working class. They have even divided it in some cases into "upper middle class" snf "lower niddle class".
What utter rot. I am not upper class, therefore (having worked for more than half my life) I am working class. So be it.
Posted by Morris Hickey of Chigwell, Essex on February 7, 2008 8:36 AM
Report this comment I have nothing but contempt for the staff of the BBC and this statement only upholds my view. Let them run 'Shameless' and 'reality radio phone ins for the weak minded' on radio 4 - and they can watch their audience drop like a stone. Whilst they are at it, they could:-
'diversify' Radio 1 with more Mozart, (far too many young people).
Radio 3 ought to have more Areosmith, to attract a less 'posh' audience.
Radio 5, well I think it ought to attract more women with more fashion shows and health programmes
Of course Women's Hour needs to report more men's issues, and stop treating them like second class citizens!!!!
Meanwhile Classic FM is starting to run more radio 4 type programmes and hopefully they might see the gap in the market the dear, foolish BBC have vacated.
Posted by Miranda on February 7, 2008 8:36 AM
Report this comment I have to work for a living so I consider myself working class.
My family has never had much in the way of cash so I consider myself working class.
I passed my 11+, went to Grammar School (thank God), worked hard, attained a half-decent career, got onto the property ladder and finally had my first taste of disposable income. Labour got in in 1997 and they deem me middle class and tax me accordingly.
I now own a decent size house, a ten year old car and my salary stays the same whereas the amount I pay in tax goes up every year. Gradually I am becoming poorer and poorer through my own success. How's that for irony?
Posted by Derek Leach on February 7, 2008 8:32 AM
Report this comment "Middle class" is a myth, and an invention of snobbery.
There is, and never has been, any such thing. There are only two classes - the working class who have to, and the upper class who don't. "Middle class" is an invention of those who know they are not upper class, but who are ashamed to be identified as working class. They have even divided it in some cases into "upper middle class" snf "lower niddle class".
What utter rot. I am not upper class, therefore (having worked for more than half my life) I am working class. So be it.
Posted by Morris Hickey of Chigwell, Essex on February 7, 2008 8:31 AM
Report this comment No we are not. In my opinion, middle class people are educated, polite, they appreciate classical music, literature and art, they follow current affairs and they do professional jobs. This is not most British people - unless the middle class now includes the petit bourgeoisie all of a sudden.
Posted by Mike on February 7, 2008 8:31 AM
Report this comment Education is the definer of Middle Class, allied with the 'correct opinion' (Liberal world view) ally this to a good job, good salary and there you have it.
The old working class have become the slob class and have been replaced with newcomers.
Posted by Margot & Gerry on February 7, 2008 8:27 AM
Report this comment If being 'middle class' involves spending large amounts of (borrowed0 money on designer trash, or going on expensive cruises and holidays with the hoi-polloi (think of Butlins 40yrs ago), or Hooray-Henrying it up at night-clubs, then, no, I am not 'middle-class'.
However, if 'middle-class' means being careful with hard-earned money, not living ostentatiously, being cultured and informed in terms of art, music, reading, history, and having a real interest in the world around one via informative programmes on TV and radio............then I am 'middle-class'
Unfortunately, the moronic class have taken over.
Posted by S Forsyth (Edinburgh) on February 7, 2008 8:26 AM
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Jane Garvey's pejorative comments about class are indicative of all the problems that currently bedevil the BBC.
And as for Mark Damazer? Like many others he makes the fundamental mistake of believing you can buy "class". Class is, and always has been, about standards and how you conduct your personal life; relative wealth has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Posted by O Zangado on February 7, 2008 8:24 AM
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I am proud to say that I am a regular listener to Radio 4. Does this make me Middle Class?...I hardly think that is for me to say. Often is the case in these modern times; those that say they ARE this, that or the other are on nodding terms with the missing link with the added benefit of indoor plumbing and a Subaru 'Impressor' (sic.) in the driveway.
Huzzah for them; for I'm sure that countless other commercial stations can count upon their patronage - were it not for the fact that the operation of a radio is beyond the dexterity of the gold ring clad hooves of this branch of the evolutionary chain.
Posted by Mark Beecroft-Stretton on February 7, 2008 8:21 AM
Report this comment The old distinctions of middle class and working class do not hold true any more.
It is now a question of whether or not one has any class.
We all know the ones that do not. It is obvious by their behaviour towards others and the presumption of their own importance relative to the opinions and well being of everyone else.
Posted by Don Hughes on February 7, 2008 7:59 AM
Report this comment No we are not all middle class now.
Like lots of things in this country, the barrier has been lowered.
Posted by Karen Fraser on February 7, 2008 7:53 AM
Report this comment Nobody from the middle class would join the armed forces.
I know where I stand,a happy ex-serviceman.
God bless them all!
Posted by R. addison on February 7, 2008 7:48 AM
Report this comment If being middle class means being interested in the world around you, the Radio 4 is getting it right.
Posted by peter on February 7, 2008 7:34 AM
Report this comment The working class is now the middle class. The tax-paying (middle)class are indeed moving to Spain, or anywhere away from England. The tax consuming, benefit dependent class remains so that Nu-Labour can be kept in power.
Posted by Ripped Off by Brezhnev Brown on February 7, 2008 7:31 AM
Report this comment Middle Class in Radio 4 land has nothing to do with 'class' as such. It's middle Britain: reasonably well educated, intelligent folk with respect and standards.
The whole structure in this country has been upset by the new class: the SCROUNGING CLASS. Raised by the left wing 'benefits to all who don't fancy working' brigade.
Posted by Frank EVANS on February 7, 2008 7:31 AM
Report this comment No, we are mostly 'materialist class'.
We know the price of everything and the value of nothing which really counts.
People have 'lifestyles' and give their children names like Jack and Amy because they think it makes them 'posh'.
Frankly , I can't wait to retire to my Spanish home and be with real people in the Spanish village where I'm going. Yes, and I will start to go to Church again...I can't bear the hypocrisy and lacklustreness of going to Church in England.
Posted by Athur J Smedley on February 7, 2008 7:28 AM
Report this comment The notion of "middle class" in England goes back to Oliver Cromwell who described himself as a "middling sort" yet the social group he belonged to consisted of 2-3 % of the population. So, middle class is British understatement for being really well off. Yet most people are terribly offended if you call them middle class since the term seems no have nedgative conotations for a lot of people. So you'll never get a lot of people admitting to being middle class although they are not working class.
Posted by Thorsten Krings on February 7, 2008 7:26 AM
Report this comment "If 'middle class' is simply another name for decent hard working families then so be it, as they take a well earned break listening to Radio 4. "
I don't understand why. Radio Four is not and has not been interested in decent, hard-working people (whether as part of a family or not) for quite a long time. Promoting religious fanatics, envirofascists and other minority extremists is more their line now.
As for the term 'middle class', I've always been struck by the completely different connotations which are attached to the term in Britain and America. Here, decades of political correctness (combined with BBC and Guardianista brainwashing to the effect that the Thatcher's legacy is an exclusively negative one) have transformed the term into, effectively, one of abuse. Broadcasters must not reflect an overly middle class standpoint, the best comprehensives must not admit exclusively middle class children, the Tories are only interested in the middle classes, etc. etc.
But in America, it's an expression of aspiration. For politicians, claiming to be on the side of the middle classes is a way to win votes, not lose them. People aspire to belong to the middle classes, and in most cases believe that working hard and trying to make a success of their lives will enable them to do so. Basically, it's considered a negative term here and a positive one there.
Could it be the blinkered British approach that is responsible for so many poorly educated, benefit subsistent council estate dwellers being, in effect, forced to stay there?
Posted by Leo Enticknap on February 7, 2008 7:26 AM
Report this comment All middle class now? Would that we were. Making us so should be the government's long-term target. The middle classes are characterised by a bent for independence and self-sufficiency, respectability and self-respect, and the valuing of education. They expect to reap as they sow, and they are not insulated from the consequences of their actions like aristocrats or benefit recipients. The current tax and benefit system established since 1945 encourages people to give up their middle class sense of responsibility, and rely on the tax payer to finance their needs from cradle to grave, including old age and ill health. Hence the increase of the irresponsible under-class and the tendency to shrink the middle class.
What would grow the middle class would be an individualised form of national insurance, in which tax free contributions from employer and employee accumulated in a government controlled individual account which could be drawn on for government defined purposes, such as health care and retirement income, and bequeathed by the individual at death with the rest of his estate.
Posted by MikeMSN on February 7, 2008 7:12 AM
Report this comment It seems that the nebulous expression "Middle class" is now a general term of approbation. If detesting thump-thump music, enjoying reading, listening to Radio 4 rather than watching deadening drivel on TV, having no interest in sport whatsoever, feel nauseated by the obscene amounts paid to players, not to mention the Olympic Games, am rather glad to be born British 'tho in these times I am beginning to wonder why, might make me "Middle Class", so be it.....
Nicolas E
PS I do not belong to an "ethnic minority", am a tad over 60 and, although not at all well paid, am reasonably well educated which I imagine really puts me beyond the pale...
Posted by Nicolas Ellis on February 7, 2008 7:06 AM
Report this comment Typical of today to define 'Middle Class' by their money. To me the classifacation denotes decent hard-working self-supporting people who live up to their many family and community responsibilities and are not a drain on the State. That definition means that there are all too few as a signicant percentage who aspire to the classification may have money but have very little else. This Socialist Government want them to be dependent upon them so they will keep their vote.
Posted by Roger on February 7, 2008 7:06 AM
Report this comment The decent working class has merged into the middle classs thanks to reforms started by Margaret Thatcher.
A chav class has been left behind.
Posted by Tim in Thaland on February 7, 2008 7:04 AM
Report this comment I can't wait for Bree Harding's views on this one..........!
Posted by Granville Bull, Huddersfield on February 7, 2008 6:53 AM
Report this comment Posh people drinking much cheaper wine is more accurate,seeing as how they are over-taxed in order to pay for everyone elses habits directly or indirectly.
Posted by Phillip Meldrew on February 7, 2008 6:33 AM
Report this comment The middle class may be larger than it was but most certainly to say that we are "all middle class" is patently wrong. More affluent perhaps, but affluence does not necessarily equate to middle class. I don't think the middle class were ever just "posh people drinking expensive wine"; that sounds like a comment from a left winger with a chip on their shoulder.
Radio 4 serves an audience that is intelligent and demands a higher level of intellect in their listening than is available through other radio or TV stations, most of which are banal in the extreme.
Most of this audience will be middle class, that is a fact of life, and there is nothing wrong with that.
There is also nothing wrong in seeking a wider audience provided that intellectual rigour is maintained and that there is absolutely no dumbing down.
Posted by Andrew House on February 7, 2008 6:12 AM
Report this comment If John Prescott is Middle-class then God help those of us who were brought up as working class!
Posted by Norman Clark on February 7, 2008 5:22 AM
Report this comment “...posh people drinking expensive wine”.
That this statement was made by a reasonably senior figure at the BBC goes a long way to explaining the sad state of the UK. What an absolute trog.
The middle class isn't expanding. The cretinous class is expanding.
Posted by Vasco on February 7, 2008 5:08 AM
Report this comment If 'middle class' is simply another name for decent hard working families then so be it, as they take a well earned break listening to Radio 4.
The rest can listen or watch one of the other gutter stations...
Posted by manoj on February 7, 2008 4:33 AM
Report this comment England may become middle class very soon because most of the working class are moving to Spain.
Posted by hugo austen on February 7, 2008 3:16 AM
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