Clave in metal

[Vansoth]

^ Are you serious? You actually think Chaos AD and Roots are metal? There is a massive groove influence, not to mention no coherent riffs or any kind of decent vocals. Chaos AD was a little closer to metal, but Roots? I mean, please.

[MPF]

Roots was the last album I felt had any Metal left in the band. I'm fully aware that a lot of people don't consider it metal. It's also the last Album with Max that another reason I feel that way.

But come on, Beneath The Remains, Arise, Chaos AD, those are Metal.

So just because there is groove iot can't be metal? So that must mean Pantera can't be metal because they have groove.

[Vansoth]

^ Beneath the Remains and Arise are certainly metal. Also...playing the same thing over again at the same tempo is not groove, Pantera has no groove. Try listening to the Meters if you think Pantera has groove, wahaha.

[MPF]

I actually like Meters yes they have groove, but just because they show it predominately dosen't mean Pantera dosen't have any.

It's a stupid thing to fight over, it's all a matter of persepctive.

[anarchist_tomato]

i think there is a certain amount of arrogance and ignorance amongst the extreme metal community. i *do* recommend reading that wikpedia article, as well as books like 'the heavy metal encyclopedia'. heavy metal extends from korn to deicide, metallica to rammstein, led zeppelin to cradle of filth.

hard rock is bands like audioslave, of which i can still hear on 96fm. there's no way 96fm would ever play anything from sepultura, regardless of what album, because it's too damn heavy. what black and death fans have to understand is that groove is an integral part of metal, and metal that grooves is actually heavier than metal that doesn't. the idea with metal grooving is that it is thick, dense, and you ca do a big circular headbang to it.

an amazing groover is gene hoglan, and to answer rapscallion's orginal question, many times gene plays a 'disco' back beat, where he hits on the 'and' instead of 1234. it makes and amazing feel and with sextuplets or 32nds under it, is heavy as hell. there was a time when metal players sang in a low tone with balls, not this faggy high-pitched stuff, used 2Bs instead of 7As and just about punched their beaters through the bass head instead of triggering with a faggy light-weight kit.

ultimately it boils down to record stores and metal shows and genuine experts that have researched the subject their whole lives. they would classify all of the above as metal. any record store will have soulfly, sepultura, korn, deicide, metallica... all in the one section. metal. does this make them wrong?

if you believe that any album by seplutura is hard rock, then you seriously need to listen to some other genres of music and gain some musical perspective. the world's best players, especially metal, have always listened to other genres and incorporated something non-conventional into the genre. i can guarantee that your favourite metal drummers don't just listen and drum along to black or death, if they do just get stuck on the one genre, then they're sh*t, end of story.

heavy metal is not black and death, black an death are two niche sub-genres within metal. metal is the most diverse, innovative, and eclectic genre in existence. in thirty years time, ppl will read about all these 'category' arguments and wonder what the f*ck we were arguing about. "i can't like this, it's nu-metal, listen... there's palm muting and a syncopated beat"! who cares? listen, learn about it, broaden your horizons, and then.... you will become a much better musician.

vansoth, homework for you! listen to the album 'alien' by strapping young lad. considered by many to be one of the heaviest albums in existence. try and play along to gene hoglan, there is amazing groove in this album, but seriously heavy groove that shakes the earth. when you can groove and rumble the earth at the same time, while making someone's teeth gnash and head bang, then you are truly a metal player.

[Vansoth]

^ I'm sorry dude, but saying that nu metal is not metal is not arrogance, it is fact. Record stores will have that sort of thing in the metal section because it's popular, and popularly defined by the media as metal.

I call the Chaos Ad and Roots and later (particularly Roots) Sepultura albums hard rock and not metal because they really lack any elements that make them metal, other then aggression. When I was referring to groove metal that isn't groove, I was thinking of bands like Pantera, not anything with Gene Hoglan in it. Just listen to Walk by Pantera and you'll understand what I mean.

[onionrings]

[anarchist_tomato]

i could understand how load and reload could be hard rock, but anything else mentioned, no way. if you put roots in hard rock, i'm sure they'd fire your arse.

[polski krew]

[rapscallion]

[onionrings]

[rapscallion]

could we move this discussion from whether or not sepultura is metal back to whether or not Igor does clave beats?

[anarchist_tomato]

study the definition of clave (broader than you'd think) and decide for yourself. i'd dare say he does on occasion, but i don't know enough of his work to give a decent answer. try a clave snare beat with a simple straight-sixteenth bass drum pattern underneath though and you've got what you're after. they'll herald you a genius! try the same but with disco as well, feels awesome!

[rapscallion]

I've got a few clave style beats I'd like to put in some songs when we get some more written... (copy these into notepad)

|c--cc--cc--cc--c| |h---h---h---h---|h---h---h---h---|
|s--s--s---s-s---| |----s---s-------|s-----s-----s---|
|bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb| |b-----bbb-----bb|b-----bbb-----bb|

you could double the bass on the first one, or double the hats with the ride on the second, or switch 3-2 to 2-3 or vice verse... TONS of possibilities.

What do you do for disco? I've never heard of there being any sort of beat you could classify as disco...

[anarchist_tomato]

cool beats man.

disco:
(notepad)

1+2+3+4+
-x-x-x-x <-hats
--o---o- <-snare
o---o--- <-kick

play the kick and snare on the usual 1 and 3, and 2 and 4, but play the hats on the "+". works really well on a china too. now improvise on your feet.