Court TV Host: Can public schools use race as a factor to determine student placement? That's a question the Supreme Court is taking up today in two cases from Seattle, Wash. and Jefferson County, Ky. The issues were just debated on The Best Defense - and we're going to join the debate here with Terence Pell of the Center for Individual Rights and ReNee Dunman of the American Association for Affirmative Action. Wed, December 31, 1969 at 16:00

Court TV Host: Welcome, thanks for being our guests online today. What's at stake in today's cases?

ReNee Dunman: I think what's at stake today is the victory of the Brown holding. If we return to government-sanctioned segregation, we will undermine the victory of the Brown holding. The Supreme Court determined that segregation was unconstitutional, and that integrated schools produce better citizens. We're talking about our future here, our future citizens, future taxpayers, and if we are to be a leading nation, we have got to prepare these students in K -12. If we miss it now, we've lost it forever. We've seen that before, pre-Brown, and were still digging out. So there's a vested interest in this case for the entire nation.

Terence Pell: I think what's at stake is the extent to which the court is going to let the government classify individuals by race every time it's convenient to do so, or every time it seems to serve a good objective. No one doubts the value of diversity and integration. The question is whether a school can treat individuals differently based on race to further those objectives.

Question from kiara: Please give us some background on what might have prompted these Supreme Court arguments.

Terence Pell: In each case, a parent or group of parents sued to stop the school from taking race into account in school assignments.

ReNee Dunman: In addition, what hasn't been said is that race is only one factor that is being used, and it's used as a tiebreaker. The first factor is geographic location and then whether there's a sibling in attendance. Only if the school's racial makeup deviated in 15% in either direction from the neighborhood's, only then is race taken into account. This could impact either student, regardless of color. Any student can be denied his or her first choice when you look at those three factors - if you even need to get to the tiebreaker.

Question from DrChamp: As a current taxpaying citizen, I for one have problems with the government FORCING students to be bussed all over a city in the name of integration. Haven't we already had this discussion in this country? Shouldn't a parent choose which school his or her child attends?

ReNee Dunman: Shouldn't a parent be able to choose? I think we tried that in this country 50 years ago - and the result was separate but unequal. And this is really about opportunity and equal access. Someone suggested that this isn't about affirmative action, but this is exactly what it is - taking a conscious action to achieve integration, and conscious action is affirmative action - and what the petitioners would suggest - no action - equates to irresponsible action.

Terence Pell: Both of these school systems allow parents and children to pick the schools they want to attend, and as a result, these schools are racially mixed just as a function of parents and children seeking the best schools for their children. That's a good, we ought to encourage that. It's a more honest and realistic integration than the type of integration achieved through forced busing or racial preferences in admissions.

ReNee Dunman: In these two cases, there is not a selective competitive process, there is no preference given to anybody. Anyone can be accepted or denied equally. Additionally, merit is not taken into account in these student assignment plans.

Terence Pell: The fact is that the preference of some parents is given priority over the preference of other parents, based solely on the color of their child's skin. That's what I meant when I said there was a racial preference involved here.

Question from greenacres: Are you saying, Mr. Pell, that race should never be considered as a factor at all in student distribution, even if neighborhood housing patterns end up causing segregated schools?

Terence Pell: Race should be a last resort, used only when every other method fails to produce racially mixed schools.

ReNee Dunman: I think Mr. Pell has just described what is happening here. Race is being used as the tiebreaker, as the last resort. As a result, he's really supporting the plans. These school districts should be applauded, they should be celebrated, and they should not be sued. It amazes me that many of these school districts, take Louisville as an example, it was under a court ordered plan - that order was lifted and the plan that is in place now is really one that mirrors the court order that was in place for years.

Terence Pell: The record shows that since Seattle stopped using race in admissions - the plan was stopped several years ago - the racial diversity of the schools has actually improved. This shows that racial preferences are not necessary to achieve racial diversity.

ReNee Dunman: It was Justice O'Connor who said that affirmative action would no longer be needed in 25 years; however if the outcome of these cases do not uphold integration in public schools and the taking affirmative steps to do so, we will need a lot longer than the 25 years that she predicted. We will retreat back to pre-Brown. This is not the time to retreat. Global economic health is at stake. We need to think beyond a first or second choice for school assignments.

Question from JERRY_The_Snowman: Instead of emphasizing racial diversity, the focus should be on improving the schools where the children are living, not busing them out to schools farther away or re-drawing the districts.

ReNee Dunman: I'm in full agreement with that. If you were able to say that at all of the schools there was equal access to opportunities and resources, you would at least remove the element of perception that one school was more favorable than other. I don't think you would remove the need for student assignment plans because that will not change segregated housing choices.

Terence Pell: One of the best ways to counter housing patterns is through first-rate schools with high standards. When schools do that, they pull children from all neighborhoods and produce racially mixed educational environments.

Question from jinglejangle282: Social science arguments played a very large role in Brown v. Board of Education - what about those arguments in this case?

Terence Pell: Many social scientists have studied the question of the effect of integrated classrooms on learning outcomes. Though the evidence is inconclusive, nobody disputes the value of children interacting with children from other backgrounds, including other racial backgrounds. I don't think that social science is going to be a big factor in this case.

ReNee Dunman: There are several social scientists who have signed on as friends of the court. Study after study has shown the negative impacts of segregation in public schools. One of the more recent ones has been the Harvard Civil Rights Project's study. The bottom line is that segregated schools tend to be unequal in many aspects.They have higher concentrations of poverty, fewer opportunities for students to understand each other. There was a brief signed on by 553 social scientists, and it asserts that racially integrated schools have been shown to promote cross-racial understanding, decrease bias, and promote academic achievement for black and Latino students.

Court TV Host: Any closing thougthts?

Terence Pell: The problem in Seattle is not the racial mix in the classroom but the shocking disparity in academic achievement among racial groups. Whereas 66 % of tenth graders can read at grade level, only 35 % of the African American 10th graders read at grade level. That's the problem we need to be addressing, not the racial mix of this or that magnet school.

ReNee Dunman: I don't believe the 14th amendment should be twisted to forbid these school systems from taking affirmative steps to provide the opportunity to students of diverse backgrounds, to learn, live and play, and eventually work, together. If there are those who would like to join the efforts of the American Association of Affirmative Action, our website is www.affirmativeaction.org

Court TV Host: Mr. Pell, would you like to mention your website?

Terence Pell: Our website is www.cir-usa.org

Court TV Host: Thank you very much for being our guests online today. We hope you'll both come back.