Interview: Johnny Wilson and Lisa Stevens of Paizo Publishing
Interview: Johnny Wilson and Lisa Stevens
Date: July 12th 2002
by: Michael Burnaugh (Realmprotector) |
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Johnny Wilson is the president of Paizo Publishing, LLC and former Group Publisher for Periodicals at Wizards of the Coast. Lisa Stevens is the CEO of Paizo Publishing, LLC and president of the official Star Wars Fan Club. Stevens, a well-known Star Wars collector and enthusiast, is a game industry pioneer who helped start White Wolf (Vampire: The Masquerade) and Wizards of the Coast with Peter Adkison. Paizo Publishing, LLC recently announced an exclusive publishing agreement with Hasbro, Inc. to produce Star Wars Insider, Dungeon Adventures and Dragon magazines. In addition, Paizo Publishing, LLC will take over management of the Star Wars Fan Club.
GamingReport:
First Johnny and Lisa I'd like to thank you for taking the time to do this interview and congratulate you on your purchase of the periodicals.
Johnny Wilson:
Thanks, Michael. People who've known me for a long time know that I like to share what I think, so this should be fun.
Lisa Stevens:
Thanks, Michael
GamingReport:
Let's start at the beginning. How were you both first introduced into gaming and would you please tell us
some about your first campaigns.
Lisa Stevens:
I started roleplaying at St. Olaf College when I accidentally got into a D&D; group when I was trying to find folks who were playing the Alkalabeth computer RPG from Lord British. I didn't know there was a pen and paper game at the time, but quickly got enraptured and started my own campaign.
I started with a couple of friends and we played in a world of my creation using the Keep on the Borderlands as the base of operations. I borrowed heavily from the fiction I was reading at the time, but we had a great time. Evenutually, I ported the campaign over to the official Greyhawk setting and that is where I DMed ever since.
I DMed a couple of Greyhawk storylines over the next 8 years, mostly settled around the country of Furyondy. Eventually, a couple of my players decided to design their own RPG, which is what lead to Ars Magica being born and my entry in the gaming industry was assured.
Johnny Wilson:
I started gaming when I was a little kid. My granddaddy loved to play checkers, dominoes, and a game called "42" that is essentially Bridge with dominoes. He taught me how to play all of those and later, my great uncle taught me how to play Marble Out, a rather ruthless version of Parcheesi with a board he'd made himself.
Of course, I played Monopoly, Sorry, Scrabble, Life and Clue, as well as a multitude of card games. Then, in college, I discovered the 3M (later, Avalon Hill) Bookshelf Games like Acquire and Stocks & Bonds. From there, I discovered historical war games and really started getting into the hobby.
While I was in graduate school, I discovered Traveller and Steve Jackson's "The Fantasy Trip". Before you knew it, I was running a Fantasy Trip campaign and playing around with the three small Dungeons & Dragons books. I mostly used them as resource material for my Fantasy Trip campaign, though. Then, a colleague invited me to join his 1st Edition AD&D; group. I enjoyed playing in it, but still preferred running the Fantasy Trip campaign. I liked the flow better.
My first campaign was loosely based on a movie called "The Wicker Man". It wasn't set in the modern era, but I tried to use all of the set-ups from the movie in a geographical locale based loosely on Corsica. In fact, before they reached the island with "The Wicker Man", the characters actually began the campaign manacled in the hold of a pirate ship. Sounds corny, now, but it played very, very well.
GamingReport:
Do you still game now and if so what games do you play?
Lisa Stevens:
I haven't been gaming too much lately, though I am dying to either get into a D&D; game or DM one myself. I play Magic: The Gathering every so often, and Vic (my SO) and myself have been giving the new Star Wars TCG a ride. I also am addicted to Madden Football for the Game Cube. I love the part where you draft your team from all the players in the league and assemble it from there. The guys at Paizo have promised to teach me how to play Chainmail and I want to learn the new Marvel Heroclix from Whiz Kids.
Johnny Wilson:
Are you kidding my soul? I play in Chris Perkins' (former Editor of Dungeon Adventures and current Creative Director on the Star Wars RPG) weekly campaign set in Arveniar. If you read very many of Dave Gross' editorials during his last year or two at Dragon, you know the campaign I'm talking about. I was a bard named Embry Indomeer until he died in the midst of a horde of baddies, never to be seen again. I like to think he's on the plane of Ysgard where he'll have plenty to sing about. I also played Feroz Battacharya, a Witch Hunter/Shaman in James Wyatt's lunchtime Mahasarpa campaign. In the new location, I won't be able to continue that one.
There is NOTHING like playing in Chris Perkins' campaign. I would rather be a character in his campaign than to run my own. I DO enjoy DMing, however. I ran a Gangster campaign for a year and a half, a Traveller campaign for 5.5 years, a Fantasy Trip campaign for 2.5 years, and have DMed the Microsoft campaign since last year's GenCon.
Meanwhile, I run a play-by-email campaign of Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game and a monthly game of 3rd Edition D&D; at Microsoft. Believe it or not, we've roleplayed through the entire plot of T.H. Lain's upcoming novel, The Bloody Eye (due in January, 2003). I had written a mini-adventure as a companion to the novel and I got carried away.
I also play Wilderness War, a board war game from GMT Games. I play it using a great piece of software known as the Cyberboard, available free online. Whenever I can, I play Ironsides (an English Civil War game from 3W) and Battle Cry (the semi-miniatures game from Avalon Hill). Right now, I'm addicted to Age of Wonders II, a fantasy strategy game on the PC.
GamingReport:
When did you both first start working in gaming and what made you decide to continue it as a career?
Lisa Stevens:
Like I said above, it started when some of my gaming friends decided to publish the Ars Magica RPG. We started a game company called Lion Rampant Games, name in deference to the heraldic sybol of St. Olaf College, our alma mater.
I never really thought about gaming as a career, it just sort of happened for me. And I found that I was good at it. Once I got sucked in, there was nothing else for me to do.
Johnny Wilson:
I started writing computer game reviews when I was still a full-time pastor. Later, I reached a point where I knew I had reached a political impasse in my denomination and could not do what I most loved. (I taught Hebrew and Old Testament at a seminary.) I left the pastorate and took a part-time job as assistant editor of Computer Gaming World magazine. That is, I was paid for part-time but spent the entire day at the office. Then, I taught English and Introduction to Computers at a local business college at night to make ends meet.
I loved covering the electronic game industry and became, for a time, something of the industry guru (or, at least, the industry curmudgeon). It was so fulfilling that I stuck with it until I had the chance to come to Wizards of the Coast as Group Publisher of Duelist, Amazing Stories, Dungeon and Dragon.
GamingReport:
A couple questions for Lisa. Have you ever considered your own d20 company and if so do you have your own world or game you'd like to produce?
Lisa Stevens:
I did think about it when I left Wizards at the end of 2000, but there were already so many good companies out there doing stuff that I thought it just didn't make any sense for me to add to the din. I like to do projects where I am one of only a few companies competing in a marketplace. Besides, what better thing to do then become an official D&D; licensee, as that is the game I love the most. As for my own world, as I said, Greyhawk is my first love in terms of campaigns. Perhaps Jesse, Chris, and Erik will be able to convince me to polish up some ideas I had from my Greyhawk campaign for publication in our D&D; mags.
GamingReport:
How was your experience with White Wolf and Vampire?
Lisa Stevens:
I knew right away that we had lightning in a bottle. I remember very vividly Mark Rein Hagen pitching us on the idea for Vampire as we drove up to GenCon in 1990. It was so incredibly cool and different (you play the monsters) that I knew he was on to something. Originally, Mark wanted to do it as an Anne Rice license, but we quickly decided to do our own gaming world (the World of Darkness).
It was really fun to watch the excitement build for Vampire when we released our little color fliers with the artwork and fiction and stuff in it. You could tell that we really hit a chord. From there, it was just holding on for the ride. I remember playtesting the game early on in the White Wolf house where we all lived down in Atlanta. It was some of the best roleplaying I have ever had.
GamingReport:
How was your experiences working with WotC and what did you think about Hasbro's purchase of WotC?
Lisa Stevens:
I really had a wonderful career at Wizards of the Coast. How many times are you given the opportunity to do so many different things with your career, from marketing for Magic, to running a whole product division, to establishing licenses for our products, to integrating TSR into Wizards when we bought it, to being the Greyhawk manager for the relaunch of the campaign setting, to being part of the team that launched 3rd edition, to starting up the Magic Pro Tour, to building the first Game Center here in Seattle, to being the Brand Manager for Star Wars in the end. I mean, that is what life is all about, having one adventure after another. I learned so much from my time wiht Wizards and got to do so many things. What wasn't to like.
As for Hasbro buying up Wizards, I was all for it. When you first start a company, you don't think that you will ever get rich doing it. And then, all of a sudden, somebody offers you enough money so that you will be financially independent for the rest of your life. And of course, you jump at it. It is like hitting it big in Vegas, you take your chips, cash them in and go home. It is not every day that you get a chance to make that kind of money. I was ecstatic to get the opportunity in my lifetime. Besides, it gave me the wherewithal to start up Paizo.
Johnny Wilson:
Wizards of the Coast offered some remarkable experiences. I remember trying to give some career advice to my eldest son and hearing him chide me by saying, "Not everybody has the privilege of loving their job like you do! Some people just have to make money!" The best thing about WotC is the amazing talent pool of creative people. To work with a Chris Perkins, to playtest alongside Skip Williams, to philosophize with James Wyatt, and to commission artwork from Todd Lockwood creates an amalgam of incredible experiences.
I will always be grateful to Peter and Vince for giving me the opportunity to launch TopDeck. At over 230,000+ sales for some issues, TopDeck had to be the best-selling table-top game magazine ever. Unfortunately, it was also the most expensive table-top game magazine ever produced. I learned a lot about production costs on WotC's, and later Hasbro's, investment.
I'll also never forget arguing with Ryan Dancey. He's a brilliant man and it's fun to work alongside him. He loves to challenge people and I loved to come right back at him. We're very different, but I learned a lot from him. I hope he learned a little bit from me.
I will also always be grateful to Charlotte Stuyvenberg, the VP of Marketing who hired me into the job and gave me the chance to win big victories and make big mistakes. At that time, the magazines were treated as pure marketing vehicles. They weren't expected to make money. Charlotte and I saw the handwriting on the wall and started to turn them around. I'm delighted to say that they are now a good business and I'm thankful that Hasbro is letting them serve as the core of a new publishing company.
GamingReport:
Will you two be at GenCon and if so what will you be involved in?
Lisa Stevens:
I was already planning to be at GenCon this year on my own, so, yes, I will be there. I have been going every year since 1983, so I wouldn't want to miss the last Milwaukee GenCon. As for what I will be invovled in, I will be meeting up with folks along with Johnny Wilson to talk about how Paizo and our magazines can help other companies. We have a booth inside the Wizard's castle, which will provide gamers with a chance to talk to our editors. It should be a blast!
Johnny Wilson:
Oh, yes! We'll have our little podium in the GenCon castle. We are an independent company, but we still have very close ties with WotC. We'll have a seminar on adventure game design for Dungeon and Polyhedron, as well as a seminar on designing campaign nuggets for Dragon and Polyhedron. We'll even have a press conference style event where readers and fans can voice their fears and challenge us about our future plans.
Believe it or not, we actually still have four employees on-site at WotC HQ today, finishing up the GenCon program book. AND, Paizo Publishing, LLC is the official sponsor of the GenCon Auction. That's appropriate enough, since the auction usually has a few rare Dragon and Dungeon issues offered to collectors.
GamingReport:
How did this all come about with the magazines? Did Wizards come to you?
Lisa Stevens:
When I left Wizards at the end of 2000, I told Johnny to give me a call if Wizards ever talked about selling the magazines. He called me last December and we have been working on it ever since.
GamingReport:
Tell us about the name of the new company.
Johnny Wilson:
Paizo is the Greek verb meaning, "I play, I jest, or I dance." We have two game magazines and one magazine devoted to the most successful motion picture universe of all time. Lisa and I like to say that we will publish magazines that complement enthusiastic fan bases wherever they are. Gaming and entertainment seem to be covered by jesting and playing, so we thought it was appropriate. Also, using the Greek verb is something of an homage to my ministerial background and a tip of the hat to a phony pseudo-Greek noun I created back in the CGW days when I didn't want to say, "Gameography".
GamingReport:
Will the current staff remain?
Lisa Stevens:
We kept absolutely every last person. I am really excited bout that, as not only are they great folks to work with, but it gives the magazines added continuity, which is really important as we make the transition.
GamingReport:
Will there be any changes to the magazines and will Dragon and Dungeon still be D&D; only magazines?
Lisa Stevens:
For the time being, things will stay pretty much the same. The magazines are doing really well, so why mess up a good thing? Of course, all magazines change over time. I expect these will also, especially as we get feedback from our readers. As for their focus on D&D;, that is what those magazines are meant to do...support the greatest game system in the history of roleplaying. We may branch out from time to time, but the focus will always be on D&D...period.;
GamingReport:
Why did you decide to discontinue Star Wars Gamer?
Johnny Wilson:
I actually launched Star Wars Gamer prior to our acquisition of the Star Wars Insider license. With enough hubris to match the Greek origin of our company name, I thought I could make both magazines work simultaneously. I'm very proud of Star Wars Gamer. It had solid adventures, magnificent art, and terrific fiction. Unfortunately, it was largely perceived as MERELY a roleplaying magazine. To me, that isn't a criticism, but it was definitely a negative when advertisers were looking at it. Most Star Wars advertisers felt they could reach the audience they needed with Star Wars Insider alone and most game advertisers felt like they needed a broader audience than Star Wars fans. I guess The Onion was right when they made fun of us for trying to be the best magazine for Star Wars gamers. They ridiculed us for serving too narrow a niche. Could be! If so, that's just sad.
GamingReport:
Why did you decide to use polyhedron to publish the Star Wars adventures in and how often will we see these adventures?
Johnny Wilson:
Polyhedron is our D20 magazine. The Star Wars Roleplaying Game is a d20 game. It seemed like the right fit and Lucasfilm graciously permitted us to make the move. We'd love to have an adventure in every issue. We'll have a minimum of an adventure in every other issue.
GamingReport:
Will subscribers need to contact you about their subscription to SW Gamer?
Johnny Wilson:
All of the Star Wars Gamer subscribers will receive a letter with several options. Some will want to extend their Star Wars Insider subscriptions. Others may want to opt for Dungeon/Polyhedron. Others will want refunds. The business reply envelope included with the letters is the way to contact us.
GamingReport:
The press release states that the short stories for Star Wars Gamer will be included with Insider and SW adventures will be published in the poly side of Dungeon. What about the other SW gaming articles?
Lisa Stevens:
I wouldn't rule out other Star Wars gaming articles in Insider if they are really good and we feel that they have a relevance to enough readers.
GamingReport:
Will any subscription situations change with the other magazines?
Johnny Wilson:
The Star Wars Insider subscription will increase because it is going from six times per year to eight times per year and there will be more benefits along with the Fan Club membership.
As for other magazines, we have a tradition with this group. We always raise the cover price first and the subscription price, later. We price-protect the subscribers and it is possible to freeze your subscription rate for up to three years at every GenCon, even if the cover price is increasing. We did this when we raised the prices of the magazines two years ago and we'll do it again. The subscribers are our loyal readers and we want to reward them for their support by delaying any financial impact.
GamingReport:
Will Wizards of the Coast continue to support the magazines now being published?
Lisa Stevens:
Absolutely. We have a great relationship with Wizards of the Coast. We will be working closely with Mary Kirchoff and her group, as well as the R&D; folks that work on D&D.; They still view the magazines as an integral part of their D&D; marketing plan. We look forward to many, many years of working together with Wizards.
GamingReport:
Do you have any plans to do other gaming type periodicals?
Johnny Wilson:
It looks like we'll be distributing a brand new magazine for a cutting-edge type of electronic gaming. We won't be publishing it. Just helping them with distribution.
Plus, we would love to do a magazine in the strategy arena. And, with the rights to bring back Amazing Stories, it may come packaged with some electronic games that have never been published in the U.S. (Then, again, it may not!)
Lisa Stevens:
Right now, we will be focusing on getting our 3 periodicals up and running smoothly after the transition. As for what the future will bring, who knows?
GamingReport:
Will either of you be writing articles/short stories for any of the magazines?
Lisa Stevens:
I very well might be, if I have some time and I come up with an article/adventure/story that Jesse, Erik, Chris or Dave likes. But they are under no obligation to publish anything I right. It has to be right for the magazines and I expect them to hold me to the same rigorous standard that we do for all of our writers.
Johnny Wilson:
I've written a short adventure for Dungeon that ties to a T.H. Lain novel and I've been given permission to write a short story prequel to that novel for Dragon. I'll have to see if my editors think I come up to their standards, as well as Lain's.
GamingReport:
Will you be accepting submissions from folks outside the companies?
Johnny Wilson:
We always have and we always will.
GamingReport:
Will the new company have it's own website?
Johnny Wilson:
We are designing a website that we expect to grow with the company and the publications. We have some interesting plans for our website that will differ from WotC's strategy.
GamingReport:
Will coverage for Dragon, Dungeon, and Insider be on the new website or will WotC continue to cover it on theirs?
Johnny Wilson:
We plan to have coverage for all three magazines on the new website. However, we are publishing Dragon and Dungeon under license to WotC; we believe that they are an integral part of the success of the D&D; brand which is still WotC's; we are still working hand in glove with WotC's creative talents in R&D; and we know that many readers will prefer getting information by one-stop surfing on the WotC website. We welcome any coverage WotC's web team chooses to provide. With Star Wars Insider, we wouldn't expect WotC to try to maintain a page, unless it is merely to point to the Jawa Trader and the e-commerce component of the Fan Club. We aren't asking them to remove it or keep it. Their decision is their decision and needs to meet their business needs.
GamingReport:
What about message boards WotC has them for the three magazines will the new company have these as well or will WotC continue them on their site?
Johnny Wilson:
We would welcome a continuation of all three message boards. Their placement on the WotC site make perfect sense for the customers of the brands these magazines support. We wouldn't expect the presence of these message boards to preclude community building on our site, but we certainly wouldn't want to damage the great community WotC has already worked to build.
GamingReport:
What can gamers look forward to from the new company?
Johnny Wilson:
Gamers can expect consistency in content, creativity in premiums and a constant struggle for excellence. We have a transparent spell template coming in a future Dragon that we think is revolutionary. Place it over a map or your miniatures battlefield and there will be no doubt of where the fireball's or web's 30' radius hits. We also have some other premium ideas that may surprise you.
GamingReport:
What plans do you have for the Star Wars fan club?
Lisa Stevens:
We are formulating our plans right now, but I can say that we are going to try to make the Fan Club focus more on the fans. We are working on some ideas to build up more of a fan community amongst Star Wars fans. Stay tuned as we announce our plans in the next few months.
GamingReport:
Lisa, I understand you are a Star Wars collector. When did you start collecting, just how large is your Star Wars collection and what types of items do you collect?
Lisa Stevens:
Vic and I collect Star Wars items together. I tend to focus more on the vintage items from the seventies and eighties, while Vic focuses on the newer stuff. Our collection is HUGE, numbering over 30,000 items and worth quite a lot of money. It has overrun our house. In our new house, we have a whole wing for our Star Wars collectibles and I still think we are going to run out of room. :) As for what types of items we collect...anything having to do with Star Wars. The weirder, the better.
GamingReport:
What are your thoughts on owning your own company?
Johnny Wilson:
Owning Paizo is a dream-come-true. I've had other offers, but didn't take them because I love these magazines. Yet, I was frustrated because it didn't make sense to ask Hasbro to invest in other titles (you wouldn't believe how many have been offered to me over the last couple of years) and I really wanted to publish some titles in some other styles. Now, we can make those decisions on the basis of the opportunities and not on whether it makes sense for someone else's company. Hasbro makes great games. Paizo will make great magazines.
GamingReport:
Johnny, what is your outlook for the future of the periodicals?
Johnny Wilson:
A lot of great magazines will close or be sold in the next 3-5 years. This isn't an indication that magazines have outlived their usefulness. Rather, it's an indictment that the old advertising-driven model is weakening. The ad-driven model depends upon advertising for its primary income and accepts subscriptions where the publisher actually loses money on the subs in order to meet a "rate base". Magazines in the future will have four revenue streams: single copy (retail sales), subscriptions (priced so that they don't lose money), advertising and online sales (of various sorts). The successful magazines will continue to surprise their readers with articles, premiums and events of perceived value.
Dragon and Dungeon have had amazing double-digit percentage growth over the last three years. We expect that to continue for at least two more years before it flattens.
Star Wars Insider is getting stronger and stronger in percentage sell-through on the newsstand. This means it's going to get easier and easier to find, as well as improve its overall circulation numbers. It's our flagship title and it's going to get healthier and healthier.
GamingReport:
Lisa in closing, what are you thoughts on your future in gaming?
Lisa Stevens:
I am always upbeat on the future of gaming. There are always creative people
coming up with new ideas, and the old standards are still going strong after
over 25 years! Our game store owners are becoming more and more savvy, and
the gamers are more passionate than ever. I expect to be working in the game
industry until they force me to retire from it many years from now. :)
GamingReport:
On behalf of GamingReport and gamers every where I thank you both for your time.
Lisa Stevens:
Your very welcome!
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